Today I would like to welcome Naweed Khan to Kla.TV.
Naweed Khan is a Muslim thinker, lawyer and activist with German roots.
He is a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, a progressive but conservative
Islamic community with millions of members worldwide, including around
45,000 in Germany and the first Muslim community with corporate status
in Germany.
According to Mr. Khan, there are no political representatives for educated German Muslims,
so that well-integrated German Muslims are also constantly under general suspicion.
In order to counter this one-sided image of Islam and Muslims with a
balanced and differentiating voice, Mr. Khan was invited for an interview.
Mr. Khan, nice to have you with us today.
Thank you very much.
Let's move on to the first question:
The AfD (Alternative for Germany) is campaigning for more integration
and for a critical examination of Islam. The AfD is very clear about this:
Islam does not belong to Germany, moderate Muslims do.
Among other things, Muslim communities are to be excluded from obtaining corporate
status and mosques are not to be allowed to have minarets.
How do you see it?
Islam does not belong to Germany, moderate Muslims do,
it's like saying: The body is welcome, but the heart is not.
There should be no illusions here;
All Muslims, including moderate Muslims, are rejected by saying that Islam - i.e. not radical
Islam - does not belong to Germany.
It is not as if the AfD takes the position that the construction of mosques with
minarets and corporate status for moderate Muslims and organizations is welcome.
And on integration: people want more integration in Germany - of course, everyone wants that.
The problem, however, is that the AfD and its voters are not really aware
of the realities in Muslim communities.
Where else could it come from?
If the AfD had a little experience here, it would know that the establishment
of the mosque, for example, acts as a catalyst for successful integration for Muslims.
What exactly do you mean by the expression the mosque as a catalyst for integration?
Yes, take a look at Germany's major cities:
What many people, and I count myself among them, don't like for the most part are antisocial,
loud and criminal people, especially if they are also the others.
The counter question to this: Do you believe that what you think you see are people influenced by Islam?
I think the answer is no.
The mosques make an immense contribution to integration by, for example, repeatedly instilling
in Muslim youth the need to stay away from drugs and alcohol, to do well at school and to reflect on
themselves through prayer and meditation, to achieve more discipline through fasting, and so on.
So within the Muslim communities there is a direct correlation between being active in the
community and often in the mosque and doing well at school and being a social role model.
For many Muslims, the home introduction to literature, philosophy and art is often
the Quran as a historical text to study.
The exclusion of Islam and fewer mosques is therefore detrimental
to the social integration of Muslims.
On the other hand, this populist narrative that integration is largely
unsuccessful in Germany is wrong.
I can tell you that Muslims who grow up in Germany are very different from Muslims who grow
up in England or in their countries of origin,
and that in turn shows that integration works somewhere.
So you are of the opinion that Muslims are not the same as Muslims.
What are the
big differences?
In literally every area: in humor, in ways of thinking, in preferences, even in the accentuation of one's own religion.
When German Muslims meet British Muslims, it is almost as if German
and British natives were meeting.
And when British, German and Pakistani Muslims come together, the British and German
Muslims have more in common with each other than with the Pakistani Muslims.
Nevertheless, let us return to the teachings of Islam.
Muslims take their religion seriously, which
is why it is important to understand what Islam says.
Is there a command in the Koran to change anything in Germany?
That's a good question, because there is no such thing.
On the contrary: Muslims
understand verse 04:60 in the Koran to mean that one must obey the laws of the
country in which one lives.
There is also no command to turn people away from their faith by force or violence.
There is actually a command in exactly
the other direction:
Let him be a believer who wills, and
let him be an unbeliever who wills (verse
18:30, 2:256, and the whole of chapter 109).
The emphasis here is on leave,
so nothing needs to be done.
There have already been many studies and investigations in which it has been repeatedly established
that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Germany are law-abiding.
This is because the majority of Muslims know that the Quranic verses that refer to
self-defense, for example, are in the historical context, in the so-called after Hijra
- emigration, that is - of the Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Medina to avoid violence and in no
way establish an active duty to act.
In a nutshell:
There is no conflict of conscience for Muslims to live peacefully with their fellow human beings.
The agitators and the media know this too
- and when they report and pretend not to know this, as a politically responsible citizen you
have to question the intentions behind it.
Good, but something is still wrong.
Why are Muslims not welcome migrants in the West?
Why is there so much discord?
Well, in the US states, Mexicans and African-Americans are also profiled, and for
the most part these are not Muslims.
I would not imply that Muslims are bad foreigners per se.
In Germany, there are two realities in this regard:
Firstly, let's start with the obviously negative appearance of some Muslims.
Muslims who come to Germany for the first time do not yet know what the European ideal of beauty is.
That is a very important point.
The European ideal of beauty is not only used by locals, but also by Muslim
Germans to judge their counterparts.
The only difference is that Muslim Germans are more understanding
of a foreigner's journey to Europeanization than native Germans, most of whom
did not have to go through such a development themselves.
Secondly, German schools inadequately teach how to function
as a civil society;
For example, that you have to show a certain amount of respect for everyone,
their culture and their religion, and that
you have to be able to catch yourself with racist tendencies and thoughts.
Take, for example, the different opinions on the Israel-Palestine
conflict. Whoever looks at the main color and religion of the other and says:
So, only this one is not allowed to have a different opinion on the conflict, because
otherwise he doesn't belong to Germany!
Because either everyone gets the same question and then the accusation that they
don't belong to Germany or no one does.
Because racism exposes itself in the same way, xenophobia exposes itself in the same
way, and that is precisely why many educated Muslims in this country
can never feel part of Germany.
This must finally come to an end.
It is unacceptable that German Muslims are the only minority to have to take a prescribed
position on a political conflict.
For example, many are against Israel's illegal occupation and the mistreatment of Palestinians
in Gaza and the West Bank precisely because of what happened in Nazi Germany.
Which position is therefore closer to the German culture of remembrance is highly questionable.
In my opinion, normal reporting in Germany would have shown great indignation
at the confinement and oppression of defenceless people by a state authority.
At this point, it shouldn't matter whether Jewish or Muslim people are
oppressed by a state authority, and
with normal reporting, most people in German society would understand this despite
German reasons of state, precisely because
of decades of sensitization about Germany's past.
How was Khaled Mashal's terrorist call for global jihad, i.e.
holy war, received by Muslim society in Germany?
I'm sure you can judge that better than I can, because for German Muslims in my area,
Khaled Mashal is not even a household name.
Have you seen anything tangible in Germany so far that you could interpret as obedience
to a call for a global holy war?
The Muslims complain that the entire international community, including primarily the Muslim
states, is doing nothing tangible to help the defenceless people in Palestine.
So both cannot be true at the same time;
If there was a global holy war, Muslims would not be complaining that
nothing is happening for Palestine.
I have another issue that always causes confusion for our viewers.
What is your position on the topic of circumcision and mutilation of girls?
Do you have first-hand experience here?
No, fortunately not.
There is not a single verse in the Holy Quran that even rudimentarily prescribes
or even thematizes the circumcision or mutilation of girls/women.
In 2023, we should be able to differentiate between the teaching and practice
of a religion with almost 2 billion people in the most diverse cultures.
You cannot take any villages in northern Afghanistan and form your conclusions or insights
about a world religion from them, especially
if you cannot find the time or inclination to read the Holy Scriptures of the
Muslims as a historical text.
Islam is a profoundly wise and spiritual philosophy of life which, precisely because of its immense
popularity in the world, is suitable as a cover for all kinds of perverse practices.
This is not a religious phenomenon either.
The National Socialists misused Charles Darwin's basic theory and justified their
violence with so-called Social Darwinism.
Today, politicians use all kinds of terms without really knowing their substance or wanting
to apply them without contradiction.
The use of banner words such as democracy, freedom, justice, etc.
is open to any kind of abuse.
Why should chameleon-like actors not misuse such a successful doctrine and
language for their un-Islamic purposes?
That means you have no female family members who have had to undergo
circumcision or mutilation?
Is this a correct assumption?
That is absolutely correct.
I can tell you that the whole concept of female circumcision and mutilation
is as unworldly to me as it is to you.
Of course there may be Muslims who, due to lack of education, poverty and other factors,
are subjected to the perverted teachings of Islam by certain interest
groups in distant parts of the world.
As a result, there may be one or two people in this country who still need to clarify
and reject these views for themselves in the course of their engagement with Islam.
However, what you are implying, that there is a fundamental and socially critical problem with
the circumcision and mutilation of girls in Islamic communities, is absolutely incorrect, especially
for Muslims in the West.
The honest citizens in this country know that too.
Because where are the many girls and women with Muslim roots in Germany who can show
that most Muslims actually want female circumcision and mutilation and secretly
go through with it, perhaps on vacation?
So we should finally question those who, by spreading assumptions and fringe events, are constantly
trying to divide normal citizens of every religion and world view and set them
against each other.
The problem seems to be that everyone perceives different realities from their own perspective.
Many people believe that Germans are constantly insisting that they should not be proud
of themselves and that they must be pluralistic.
How do you see it?
Germany does not need to be ashamed of its identity - on the
contrary, Germany must
finally have the courage to proudly recognize the very effective integration,
as previously indicated.
What could be more national and beautiful - for a non-racist person, mind you - than
to see how many other people speak German and thus also carry a part
of German culture within them?
Why are integrated Muslims, who are neither violent nor planning the downfall
of the West, who are culturally inclined, not given a chance to be part of Germany?
Who can answer the question
as to when a German Muslim in Germany, born in Germany, living out his religion
peacefully, is accepted by the locals?
And where is the political representation?
When it comes to pluralism, I do not at all share the view
that pluralism is writ large in Germany.
The topic is always treated with a focus on extreme fringe phenomena and generalized
conclusions are used to suppress those with whom one would hardly have any problems
in real life on a human level, be it as neighbors or friends.
When was there a report about a well-integrated Muslim couple in Germany -
oh, that's right, they don't exist because they are all secretly radical.
I can assure you that even Muslims who have grown up in Germany and speak perfect German
often do not feel accepted by the locals in their everyday and professional lives.
So you believe that when it comes to the integration of Muslims, a distinction
must always be made between the integration of generations of Muslims?
Yes, along with a little more understanding and hope for the 1st generation that they too might learn
a few things from the 2nd generation.
As emphasized, there is a very recognizable development towards a Europeanization
of the expression of Islamic beauty ideals.
Without anyone ever talking about it, it is a fact that the second generation of
Muslims are constantly implementing this ideal of beauty in their
families and in the way they live out
their private lives and religion - how could it be otherwise?
If Muslims grow up in Germany, is it really credible that they have no attachment to Germany, internalize
nothing of Germany and wish Germany only evil?
That sounds like a bad movie.
Many are already grateful that they are not persecuted in Germany because of their faith and are turning
their backs spiritually on their own countries of origin, such as Pakistan and Afghanistan.
We must finally put an end to this skepticism - which actually does nothing other
than divide ordinary citizens among themselves and distract them from real issues.
Islam wants peaceful coexistence.
The majority of German Muslims behave in the same way.
Mr. Khan, thank you very much for this interview and thank you very much for joining us.
Thank you very much.