Welcome, Mr. Wolski.
Thank you for the invitation from KlaTV.
Yes, with pleasure. We are conducting this interview on a very memorable day, the anniversary of November 9th.
It is now exactly 35 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.
You are the author of several very interesting books on this very subject, which can also be found on your website.
And before we start, let us first introduce you to our viewers.
Michael Wolski was born in Saxony in 1952 and grew up in East Berlin.
He is the father of three children.
After graduating from high school in 1970, he studied economics, specializing in foreign trade.
Mr. Wolski then worked in GDR foreign trade from 1974.
From 1986 to 1990, he was a liaison for GDR foreign trade in the office of a US corporation in
the International Trade Center in East Berlin.
In December 1989, he was commissioned by the Group to set up a sales company in East Berlin.
This order was stopped again in January 1990.
At the beginning of 1991, Mr. Wolski was transferred to Moscow.
There he was the founder and head of the Group's representative office in the USSR and witnessed the collapse
of the Soviet Union and the transformation of Russia.
In 1998, he returned to Berlin and worked as a consultant for Russian companies.
From 2006 to 2012, he was the founder and director of the German-Bosnian Business Association in Sarajevo.
Michael Wolski has been retired since 2014.
He is the author of five books about the fall of the Berlin Wall.
In our memories and in the media reports, the fall of the Wall in 1989 always appears as a peaceful revolution,
as the result of the dissatisfied population in the GDR.
Many people think of peace and demonstrations.
And in your book 1989 Mauerfall in Berlin, a look back after 35 years, you as a contemporary witness describe the fall of
the Wall as an event that was carefully planned and implemented.
What makes you think that?
Yes, as I described in my CV earlier, I worked in the representative office of a US company in East Berlin from 1986 to
1990 and helped to build up the company's business in the GDR.
And when the Wall came down in 1989 in November, the Swiss boss of the company that managed the office came in
December and said, Mike, you're getting a special assignment.
We will establish a subsidiary for sales in the GDR, as well as in Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary.
And it's your job to initiate this foundation, so to speak, and to find the notary and lawyer and which
property and how many people, i.e. to do the preparatory work.
And now it was a few days before Christmas.
I started that and then wanted to hold talks with the people responsible for the
respective work section at the beginning of January.
And then on January 9, 1990, we got a call and were told to stop everything. We are not founding a subsidiary.
Our business is transferred to the German subsidiary.
There was a huge company in the Federal Republic of Germany, in Neuss.
And that surprised me. And I asked the question, yes, why is it being discontinued?
And then the boss told me, yes, we have received instructions from the USA, there will be no more GDR.
That was on January 9, 1990.
And if you go back in history, it was only on February 13, 1990 that the four Allies and the two German foreign
ministers met and decided to start talks on German unity.
This means that the Group's top management already knew the result in advance.
And interestingly enough, before that February 13th came, there was a second phone call where I was told that
everything had to be done by June 30, 1990, i.e. the integration of the GDR business into the West German subsidiary.
Yes, and then in May we found out that monetary union was on July 1.
And anyone who still talks about coincidence is pretty naive, I think.
But that begs the question, who actually wanted the Wall to fall?
Well, when I was in Moscow, I talked to a lot of people who were quite competent.
For example, former KGB members who were wound up after the fall of communism.
So the Soviet Union was dissolved, the foreign trade monopoly collapsed, and the individual combines were
now able to carry out export and import operations.
And it was the case that in these foreign trade departments of the combines, to which I now had to travel and
no longer to the foreign trade company in Moscow, there were people who spoke fluent German.
And then when I said, well, my Russian and my English weren't that professional, they asked me, where are you from?
And with Michael Wolski on the business card, that was not clearly assignable like Fritz Müller or something.
And when I said that, from the GDR, his face brightened:
I was also in the GDR for five years. I spoke fluent German and I knew then that he wasn't in the army, because the officers
were only ever in the GDR for a maximum of three years. And the ones from the other troop, they were there a bit longer.
And there were some interesting conversations, and they told me a lot about the GDR that I didn't know
about the leadership structures and power relations.
Well, I then read a lot, books by Soviet politicians, diplomats, secret service people and so on.
And slowly the picture became clearer that this was actually an event that was hidden behind a smokescreen,
and the smokescreen was called the Peaceful Revolution.
And then, interestingly, at the beginning of 2015 there were three publications that shed some light on the situation.
The first was an article that appeared in Der Spiegel on November 2, 2014: Gorbachev and
Shevardnadze wanted an earlier fall of the Wall.
The two of them went to Erich, they were in Berlin, there was a conference here...
When was that?
That was in '87. In 1987, on May 28 or 29, they visited Erich Honecker and told him that the Wall no longer fitted in with the
image of the House of Europe that Gorbachev had cultivated, and that disarmament was no longer
an option, and that he should remove the Wall.
And then Erich got up on the table, so to speak, and said no.
Which was very cheeky, because Erich also knew that no more tanks would come, like in Prague
in '68, if they didn't do what Moscow wanted.
And then the two of them left.
Interestingly, 14 days later Reagan was in West Berlin and spoke on the west side of the Brandenburg Gate.
And then there was this famous saying, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!
So he didn't say Honecker, but Gorbachev.
So he knew who was in charge.
And because that didn't happen, there was a covert Soviet action in 1989.
And this is described in a book called Operation Lutsch, which was published in late 2014 or early 2015, written by an undercover
officer of the GDR military intelligence service, who described how the Wall fell and what preparations were made beforehand.
And a third point was then these events in Hungary, with the dismantling of the border fortifications in 1989, where there was
also this meeting, this picnic, where almost 700 GDR citizens took the opportunity and then traveled to West Germany via Austria.
Exciting. Do you have any more events like this, where you get the feeling it's like a script, what happened here?
There were, of course, a few other events.
If you look at November 9 now, how that day was structured, how it went, it's all with images that
we all know, but with a different interpretation.
I also mentioned this in the book, for example, what we will perhaps see later when Schabowski reads out his text,
that something was missing from this text, but Egon Krenz had it written in that there was a blocking period.
Shall we listen to that for a moment?
...we have decided to make a regulation today that makes it possible for every citizen of the GDR to
leave the country via GDR border crossing points.
The Council of Ministers has decided that this transitional regulation will remain in force for the
Ministry's press department until a corresponding legal regulation comes into force through the Volkskammer.
And this text that he read out has the blocking notice.
And this was only to be announced on the radio at 5 a.m. the next morning.
And this blocking note has been removed, so that he, there is a long version, then sits there and looks and
looks and says that he somehow had the idea that there must be such a thing and didn't find it.
This triggered a run on the border crossing points.
And that was also an action organized by Soviet military intelligence.
Now the question that many GDR citizens asked themselves at the time. Why wasn't there any shooting?
Yes, that's the next point.
So there was a fatal exchange of fire at the border at the beginning of '89.
The young Chris Geffroy was shot dead in Berlin, which was of course an absolute
disaster for Shevardnadze and Gorbachev's policy.
And since the western border of the GDR was under the sovereignty of the Warsaw Pact, it was then announced in April by the
border troops of the GDR, but decided by the Warsaw Pact, that no more firearms would be used on the western border.
That was on April 12.
This means that from this point on, the border guards were visibly on guard duty with a machine gun, but without ammunition.
And only the officers had ammunition for their personal service weapons.
In other words, it was already clear at this point that this border regime would be ended.
Of course this was not known, it was top secret.
Because then there would have already been a run on the border.
Yes, but there were not only GDR soldiers now.
People also wondered where all the Russian soldiers were who were everywhere in the GDR.
Yes, and that was also the long-term plan for this event, November 9th.
November 7 was the highest political holiday in the Soviet Union, the Great October Socialist Revolution.
Back then it was October because they had a different calendar.
And then these celebrations were always two days, so November 7 and 8 were holidays in the Soviet Union, double holidays.
And that's when the Soviet soldiers were barracked.
In the GDR they were only allowed out in groups anyway, they weren't allowed out individually, and then these
soldiers were locked up in the barracks until November 13th.
And there was another reason for that.
There were 300 to 400 Soviet soldiers who deserted every year.
Many wanted to go to the East, some wanted to go home, and some wanted to go to the West.
And since on August 3 or 4, 1989, a GDR border guard was shot dead by a fleeing, i.e. deserting, Soviet soldier on
the western border, there was every reason to lock them up.
Because if the border had been opened, Soviet soldiers with weapons could have mingled in and caused a bloodbath.
Of course, there were a few other points.
The highest Soviet representative, the political representative in the GDR, was the ambassador.
And that could also have triggered the deployment of Soviet soldiers to protect the state border.
Just as in 1953 the then high commissar in the GDR, Semyonov, ordered the use of firearms by Soviet soldiers on June 17.
This was not done in Moscow, but in Berlin.
And to rule out any risk here, because it was known that the commander-in-chief of the Soviet soldiers here in the
GDR was, let's say, difficult to assess, the Soviet ambassador was either given a sleeping pill or he took it.
In any case, he was unresponsive that evening.
And that meant that the only person who could have made the call was not on site.
Yes, and the leadership, Honecker and Co.
Well, at night, when it was known... There was something else, there was this Central Committee meeting.
The Central Committee meeting was supposed to end at around 6 p.m., at the same time as he was speaking here, Schabowski.
But there, people who were obviously instructed by Soviet military intelligence or GDR
military intelligence extended the meeting.
So you've said that you can't go your separate ways, you have so many problems.
And they let the session run until 8:40 pm.
That was exactly the time when Schabowski said that this would apply immediately, and people were already
flocking to the border crossing, especially Bornholmer Strasse.
And that was also announced on television, first on East German television, then on West German television.
And they were sitting in the Central Committee as if they were in the isolation ward.
There were no cell phones at the time, so nobody could play and scream and say, oh, what's happened now?
Nope, nope. And they only found out about it at around 10 pm.
The GDR Ministry of Defense was in Strausberg and not in Berlin.
And then they drove out, so after 8:40 p.m. they were in Strausberg at about 10 p.m.
and that's when word started to get around.
And the Soviets had a hand in that, so that the ideas of perhaps deploying the first motorized rifle divisions were rejected.
Exciting. Michael
And in case there are still questions, but there were peaceful revolutionaries, of
course there were, because they were prepared.
So that was from Soviet military intelligence, not from the Stasi and KGB, but also from Western services, so that
people took to the streets, people protested, put candles in the windows and, and, and, so that already existed.
After all, it was needed later to tell the story of the peaceful revolutionaries.
And there couldn't just be three people there and say, well, here, these were the three peaceful
revolutionaries, that wouldn't have worked out so well.
So it had to be a mass movement, also territorially, so not only Leipzig and Berlin,
there were also demonstrations in other cities.
Exciting. So to summarize up to this point, because we're also seeing tens of thousands taking to the
streets on Mondays to demonstrate, just like back then.
Now you're saying that the Soviet leadership planned the fall of the Wall in principle and instrumentalized these demonstrations.
Now, finally, you have indicated that the Western secret services also played an active role.
So do I understand correctly now that East and West, who were actually officially enemies, are working together on an agenda?
I think so. You can, this common thread has been running through history since 1917, 18.
There are now countless books that prove that this cooperation existed.
Much was in the economic area, but some was also in the political area and there was certainly also
regular coordination between the services of the countries.
Exciting. That means there were something like bridges between the Eastern and Western blocs?
I would say yes. Well, I worked on a bridge like that. That was in trade.
The GDR was very interested in the arrival of these US companies.
These US companies, when they started in 1985, they must have known something, because they came at
the same time and wanted GDR citizens as employees.
They could have brought their own people, they could have looked for people in West Berlin and they could have used
foreign traders arranged by the International Trade Center.
And they wanted the latter.
And they weren't there, so a search operation had to be started first, because these people needed a Western passport.
So they had to have gone through the whole GDR mill, so to speak, to be a travel cadre.
And then I was approached and I was interested in the job, and then I said yes.
And then I started this job at the beginning of '86, in April.
But there were still several bridges, if we think back.
So Angela Merkel comes from a family of pastors.
And the pastor, Mr. Kassner, had a further training school for theologians in Templin.
And theologians from Western Europe were also regular guests there.
And they probably already have their eye on Angela.
Who knows. But somehow that sounds like an agenda that's going on here.
So a plan that wasn't just devised yesterday, right? So when did this start?
I think so. So we don't have to go back to Karl Marx in detail.
But proletarians of all countries, unite! only works if the capitalists of all countries are united,
because the proletarians are dependent on the capitalists.
But there was the October Revolution in 1917, and in the meantime there have been several books, especially from the USA, where the
connection between Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution has been described in great
detail, here for example by Anthony Sutton.
And where it was also described how Trotsky and Lenin traveled to Petrograd with financial means, one provided by the
founders of the Federal Reserve and the other by the German Abwehr, in order to instigate this revolution there.
Some because they saw the country as being ready to topple, i.e. the US bankers to get the country under their wing, so to speak,
and Lenin because he was needed to bring about the armistice, later the peace treaty,
and to free Germany from the second front.
So that means that the peace treaty of Brest-Litovsk was concluded and Germany left the Allied Entente - er, Russia left.
At that time it was still the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union was only founded in
December 22, but that was a transitional phase.
And so at that time the Americans established a man who already knew Lenin, who made the
first contracts with Lenin, that was Armand Hammer.
And until his death in 1990, shortly before his death, he was the US capital's liaison to the Politburo.
And all these major import projects of the Soviet Union for plants, hydroelectric power stations, but also
the land and lease agreement during the Second World War were concluded under his aegis, so to speak.
Oh, and by the way, Armand Hammer has been a billionaire over the years.
His father was the founder of the Communist Party, the co-founder of the Communist Party of the USA.
And of course he was also a recipient of the Order of Lenin.
A clear connection between the two blocks, it has to be said.
But now once again, because I think it is crucial for what is happening today to look back.
You said that the FED, i.e. the Federal Reserve, the most important financial oligarchs of the
Western world initiated the October Revolution.
Yes.
Then they must have had very clear financial interests?
Well, sure. The interest was to dominate Russia.
But you couldn't do that directly.
So they had tried, there was this civil war, where there were also American and English and Japanese participants in the war.
But the country was simply too big.
And they tried to establish a regime that was dependent on you, but which was not known to the world.
Nobody would have thought that these Russian communists had ultimately been financed from the West
in the start-up phase and were later controlled.
That's also the reason why many people can't believe that the Soviet Union unwound its own system.
So the fall of the Wall in Berlin was practically the untying of the brackets around the socialist countries of Europe.
The withdrawal of the Soviet army, which lasted until 1994, and then the destruction of the Soviet Union itself.
And Gorbachev, when he took office, described this beautifully with perestroika and glasnost.
Perestroika means restructuring and glasnost means transparency. And that's what he wanted to restructure.
And what we then experienced was that the oligarch caste then emerged and this politburo and the
party with all its structures disappeared at a stroke.
And the class struggle we had then mutated into a climate struggle.
Okay, that brings us to the present day, I think.
Yes, yes.
That would have been my next question.
You have described how the influence of the big financial oligarchs has actually always existed
in the history of Russia, or the Soviet Union.
Well, and today?
Michael Wolski:] Well, I think they're still on the ball, but they're not visible.
And the things that we are being fogged up with, until 1990 in the Eastern Bloc it was called the party of the working class,
class struggle, proletarians of all countries unite, all such empty words, which have now been replaced by other empty words.
And that raises the question of how this came about.
Why has there been this turnaround?
And then we have to come back to the building of the Wall, and therefore back to the Berlin Wall.
Because in the 1960s there was this change, but behind the scenes from this previous socialist system to
the development of a new strategy and theory and so on.
Let me explain it like this:
The construction of the Wall was ordered by the Soviets in 1960, i.e. to carry out the preparations, so that the GDR
could then procure everything with its planned economy, these building materials and the manpower to do so.
And then they built the wall.
The reason for this was that the Western Allies did not want to accept the Soviet proposal to change the
political landscape in West Berlin, the Berlin Ultimatum.
And then the Wall was built and then it was realized that this practically brought the GDR to the
brink of ungovernability, i.e. economic collapse.
This was not planned, it was not anticipated, but it proved that the socialist planned economy did not work in the
GDR, the only industrialized country in the Eastern Bloc.
I'm sure you've already heard of the Commercial Coordination division, headed by Alexander Schalck-Golodkowski.
This story begins in 1962, when Schalck-Golodkowski became the first secretary of the SED's foreign trade district leadership
and was now under pressure from the 30 or so foreign trade companies that existed - others were not allowed to do
this in the GDR - to lower the planned targets for exports.
After all, the GDR was an industrialized country and it bought raw materials and semi-finished products in order
to process them and sell them on worldwide, primarily to the Federal Republic of Germany, of course.
But the fact that this planned economy was so rigid meant that minor repairs, spare parts and accessories
could not be purchased and then the machines stood still.
And then the companies, the foreign trade companies, came and said, yes, we can't export because
company XY can't deliver because there are no spare parts.
In 1962, 1963, Schalck and his MFS officer had already thought about how to change things, but this was rejected in Moscow.
In 1964, as the situation continued to deteriorate, Khrushchev was overthrown and in 1965 Moscow gave the
go-ahead for this structure to be run parallel to the planned economy as private foreign trade in the GDR.
Then there was the founding charter in 1966 and then this Commercial Coordination Division was established by decree.
This was not published in the Official Gazette, as that would have been counterproductive.
The West would have been beating itself up for days over the fact that the GDR proved that communism didn't work.
But this then led to the West receiving information from a defected Czech Stasi general in 1968 that it was announced at the
autumn meeting of the Warsaw Pact in 1966 that this entire socialist doctrine would be changed and
that the West would be allowed to grow into socialism.
And interestingly enough, the former head of the Federal Office for the Protection of the
Constitution confirmed exactly that last year.
Shall we listen to that?
...I'm a lawyer, my boss would be a dictator or would-be dictator and would say, Mr. Maaßen, think about it,
how can you turn a liberal democracy into a totalitarian state that works to my liking?
Then I would also consider what mechanisms can be used to undermine the whole system.
And a system is to transform it into collectivism, where all people are gemainstreamt and all people think
in the same direction, to make them afraid and to put an overriding goal in front of them.
And I have to say, the idea of using the climate to undermine the Basic Law was the brainchild of a clever person.
I know that in the 1960s there were already people in the KGB who were thinking about how to let the West grow into socialism.
At that time, the topic of environmental protection was already being discussed in the KGB, with the topic of the environment,
with the topic of anti-racism, etc., you can get people to say, let's leave democracy and the rule of law
alone, put it aside, the decisive thing is anti-racism, the decisive thing is the environment.
These were thoughts that the KGB already had in the 1960s.
But I have to say, chapeau on the climate issue.
It really is a great achievement to use this climate issue to undermine the democratic rule of law.
Yes, and that brings us to the goals that were set in the Soviet Union in 1966.
The first goal was to let the West grow into it.
And the second goal was to earn money with the climate.
That's what happened.
So the first step was to advise the Club of Rome, the founder of the Club of Rome, so to speak, in 1967 on how the foundation
should be carried out and what the priorities should be.
He flew to the Soviet Union at the time and held lengthy talks.
And after that, when the Club of Rome was founded, two KGB generals were always members,
full members, of the Club of Rome until 1992.
I can't say what happened after that, but it's documented.
And another point is that a joint institute was founded with the Americans near Vienna for the liquidation of the
Soviet Union, where political personnel were then trained for the post-perestroika period from 1982 onwards.
In other words, there are names like Chubais, Wechselberg, Arwen and so on, who were trained there and were
then involved in privatizing public property, state property, at the end of perestroika.
And these are the billionaires or oligarchs we are talking about.
It took 200 years for these oligarchs to emerge in the USA.
And that was three to five years ago, when these oligarchs developed.
And everyone was stunned at how quickly these people got rich.
Rich by what?
Through privatization, because they were sitting at the source and were able to privatize the
relevant companies, the state-owned enterprises.
That was a pretty complicated process.
The book describes exactly what happened.
And the oligarchs from the West, the financial oligarchs, were also involved.
And they had picked out the fillet pieces in the raw materials industry.
And Khodorkovsky is such an example, Abramovich is such an example, who had received loans from the West, loan commitments,
since 1988, and who then, when the privatization was underway, acquired these companies as trustees, so to speak.
That wasn't visible, of course. Trustee, yes, they gave it to someone.
But he was at the front and everyone thought he was the owner.
And Roman Abramovich has 100 million - this is also documented in the book, there are these finches in the USA,
a control unit that investigates financial crime, and there is a longer article on this.
So he got 100 million dollars as a loan and then invested the money in an oil company, which he then sold
ten or twelve years later for 13.5 billion dollars.
Well, and now he lives off the three percent, yes.
That's a bit blatant. So, if I've understood correctly, an insane redistribution of national wealth?
Yes, after the first revolution, when all the churches and the nobles and the big landowners, the
merchants and the entrepreneurs, in other words the capitalists, were all expropriated.
Many were murdered, many fled to Europe.
And that was the second redistribution campaign, where this time people got rich in a very short space of time.
Back then, at the beginning of the 1920s during this turmoil, everything was practically shoveled into the
state and not allocated to individuals, i.e. reallocated.
So, and now what Mr. Maaßen said about the climate, that's the third redistribution.
Because now the class struggle has become the climate struggle.
And if that used to be someone who was a capitalist, so to speak, today the enemy is the climate
denier, the climate sinner, the climate-damager.
And so this whole ideology has now reached a level where CO2 levies - the whole issue of organic is also part
of it, i.e. that everything that is organic is more expensive - but also the restriction of mobility.
We are now seeing that the VW Group is being reduced, i.e. shrinking.
And that ultimately means that because people no longer want private transport for climate reasons, see
15-minute cities, you can do everything there by bike.
And if you want to get out of the 15-minute city, you need a permit in China now.
Otherwise you can't get through the barrier.
And so the forces that have now organized this are making money again.
Money is made from hot air.
And I am now referring to Mr. Maaßen.
Exciting. That means you could actually quote our nice WEF initiator to summarize?
Yes.
Klaus Schwab.
Michael Wolski Yes, that's interesting too.
They were founded in 1972, this WEF, World Economic Forum, by him, and it's still there today, such a fossil.
You will own nothing and be happy, that is the goal.
And that brings us back to the socialist society.
So now they're talking about these CO2 taxes, new heating system - 40% of people in Germany own their own home,
and I don't know how many can afford a new heating system.
And then the famous Black Rocks and similar companies will probably stand there and say, okay, then we'll
buy it from the bankruptcy estate, from a forced sale.
Yes, very, very enlightening, I would say, how far we are already in this current third process.
Yes.
KlaTV interviewer You really have to ask how much socialism really died in 1989.
But to summarize, it may be very difficult to imagine that there are hidden forces here that are
obviously working against the good of the people.
And so far already, so devilishly clever, you could almost say, so all-encompassing actually.
Yes, it's probably all controlled by artificial intelligence.
Yes, at the end of this very interesting interview, I would ask what else can be done?
Well, you can stabilize yourself by informing yourself comprehensively, i.e. by not only having your intellectual
sources from the Tagesschau, MoMa and Netflix, but also by using alternative media or taking a suggestion like this one.
I have almost 100 links in this book to the Internet, where you can find links on a wide range of topics,
where you can also collect new ideas and then look further.
But that means getting active and not sitting down in front of the TV with a bag of potato chips in the evening.
Yes, I think we'll take that with us. Thank you very much for the interview.
Thank you too.
And then we'll meet again.
Yes, thank you.