WEBVTT 00:00.192 --> 00:11.309 By settling on the slogan “Putin or Blocher Initiative,” they essentially reinforced a polarization that has 00:11.309 --> 00:18.687 supplanted any objective discussion of the initiative’s content. 00:18.687 --> 00:28.117 And so today we're basically caught up in the usual political squabble—the SVP against the rest of the parties… 00:28.117 --> 00:34.520 On the other hand, sanctions do not affect governments; rather, they affect the people. 00:34.520 --> 00:44.022 And that is what is so troubling when they target the people, because the economic boycott has 00:44.022 --> 00:49.880 left them with no food, no water, and no healthcare. 00:49.880 --> 00:58.638 So that's one thing, and there's more: namely, that the sanctions result in deaths. 00:58.638 --> 01:06.155 Sanctions kill; they are not an instrument of peace, but rather a tool used by the powerful to 01:06.155 --> 01:10.496 impose their own position and their own policies. 01:10.496 --> 01:17.013 Neutrality isn't a matter of personal preference: Who do I like? 01:17.013 --> 01:23.947 Rather, it is a principle that we have been following for nearly 200 years now. 01:23.947 --> 01:29.166 We stand apart from wars. We do not want war ourselves. We want to serve peace. 01:34.416 --> 01:36.657 Welcome, Prof. Dr. Wolf Linder. 01:36.657 --> 01:44.588 You're a political scientist, and you run the website swissneutralitynow.ch. Hello. 01:44.588 --> 01:51.936 They are co-authors of the open letter to the leadership of the Social Democratic Party of Switzerland. 01:51.936 --> 01:55.111 After all, this party leadership is opposed to the neutrality initiative. 01:55.111 --> 01:58.338 What led you to write this open letter? 01:58.338 --> 02:02.642 Yes, I'm one of those who support the initiative. 02:02.642 --> 02:09.780 We have the website, we put out a call for action, but we never had the opportunity to explain our reasoning in 02:09.780 --> 02:13.931 more detail to the party leadership or a party committee. 02:13.931 --> 02:23.877 On top of that, all the invitations we sent—we invited them—were either ignored or declined. 02:23.877 --> 02:34.418 On top of that, the party leadership did not actually allow any discussion on a larger scale at all; it 02:34.418 --> 02:40.697 adopted the slogan without convening a party convention. 02:40.697 --> 02:47.150 That's what we found—that's the first issue that won't work when it comes to such an important matter. 02:47.150 --> 03:01.262 Second: By settling on the slogan “Putin or Blocher Initiative,” they essentially reinforced a polarization that has overshadowed 03:01.262 --> 03:07.620 any objective discussion of the initiative’s content. 03:07.620 --> 03:16.868 And so today we’re actually caught up in the usual partisan squabbling—the SVP against the rest of the parties—instead 03:16.868 --> 03:21.985 of discussing the important issue, the substantive issue: 03:21.985 --> 03:28.632 Will Switzerland still be neutral in 20 years? Can it remain so, and what would be the consequences? 03:28.632 --> 03:34.625 Or will it join NATO, the EU, and other organizations? 03:34.625 --> 03:39.882 This question can no longer be raised in this referendum campaign. 03:39.882 --> 03:45.787 Switzerland—that is, official Switzerland—adopted the EU sanctions against Russia in 2022 and also 03:45.787 --> 03:49.125 stated that this is compatible with its neutrality. 03:49.125 --> 03:53.323 However, in your open letter, you wrote that economic sanctions are not a means of 03:53.323 --> 03:56.437 achieving peace, but rather an instrument of war. 03:56.437 --> 04:00.656 And you also said—this is a quote from you—“Sanctions kill.” 04:00.656 --> 04:03.304 What leads you to that conclusion? 04:03.304 --> 04:14.507 Ideally, sanctions are accepted or imposed as a form of punishment for violations of international law. 04:14.507 --> 04:22.211 In fact, very few sanctions are imposed solely because of violations of international law. 04:22.211 --> 04:34.875 Rather, it is a completely arbitrary regime in which powerful states impose sanctions on less powerful ones. 04:34.875 --> 04:37.070 I can illustrate this with an example. 04:37.070 --> 04:42.851 The sanctions against Russia were imposed by the EU. 04:42.851 --> 04:56.418 But the attacks by the U.S. and Israel against Iran—I haven't heard of any resistance to them. 04:56.418 --> 05:06.346 These are simply completely arbitrary sanctions, or it is a completely arbitrary regime that decides 05:06.346 --> 05:12.128 who imposes sanctions and who is affected by them. 05:12.128 --> 05:20.070 Then, when you look at the results, it turns out that the goal of replacing a bad government 05:20.070 --> 05:24.730 with a better one is practically never achieved. 05:24.730 --> 05:31.134 On the other hand, sanctions do not affect governments; rather, they affect the people. 05:31.134 --> 05:40.913 And that is what is concerning when they target the people, because the economic boycott has left them 05:40.913 --> 05:46.501 with no food, no water, and no access to healthcare. 05:46.501 --> 05:56.448 Then there's that, and it goes even further: sanctions can lead to death. 05:56.448 --> 06:08.275 According to estimates by the world's most renowned institution , 500,000 people are killed each year as a result of sanctions. 06:08.275 --> 06:16.100 Just imagine that number—it's more than the number of war deaths worldwide each year. 06:16.100 --> 06:24.307 And that is why: Sanctions kill; they are not an instrument of peace, but a tool used by the powerful 06:24.307 --> 06:29.059 to impose their own position and their own policies. 06:29.059 --> 06:32.325 How should Switzerland have acted in 2022? 06:32.325 --> 06:36.028 What would have been better than adopting the EU sanctions? 06:36.028 --> 06:40.473 Well, there would have been alternatives. 06:42.067 --> 06:55.325 One of the best, most experienced, and sharpest diplomats—namely Paul Widmer—recently said that Switzerland could have responded 06:55.325 --> 07:01.403 in the same way it did in 2014 during the Crimea crisis. 07:01.403 --> 07:06.220 At that time, Switzerland imposed the "Courant normal." 07:06.220 --> 07:14.450 In other words, Russia was subjected to a regime at that time under which trade was frozen. 07:14.450 --> 07:21.887 So, trade is limited to the same level as before the Crimean conflict, and anything beyond that is prohibited. 07:21.887 --> 07:32.459 And that also ruled out any circumvention of the sanctions, and the country was left without sanctions …, yet it was 07:32.459 --> 07:38.442 made clear that they did not agree with this Crimea situation. 07:38.442 --> 07:46.926 And that would have been the alternative in 2022 as well, regarding the issue of Ukraine. 07:46.926 --> 07:50.387 And Switzerland could have remained neutral. 07:50.387 --> 07:52.575 Because that's the biggest joke of all. 07:52.575 --> 08:00.320 So our foreign minister says that Switzerland will remain neutral, despite these sanctions. 08:00.320 --> 08:11.720 And yet President Biden in the U.S. and Putin have both said, practically in unison: Switzerland is no longer neutral. 08:11.720 --> 08:20.661 The American president is smiling because the U.S. has never been fond of Swiss neutrality—it would prefer integration. 08:20.661 --> 08:32.100 And Putin, presumably, with some regret, because he realized that this means Switzerland can no longer serve as a mediator. 08:32.100 --> 08:40.719 Opponents of the neutrality initiative argue that if, in the event of a conflict or war, one treats the aggressor and the 08:40.719 --> 08:46.277 victim equally, then one would be siding with the stronger party. 08:46.277 --> 08:49.241 What would you say to that statement? 08:49.241 --> 08:52.960 Well, that's, of course, a common argument. 08:52.960 --> 09:00.663 It is an argument that essentially calls for a country to follow its sympathies. 09:00.663 --> 09:07.898 That's clear—in the case of Russian aggression, public sympathy clearly lies with Ukraine. 09:07.898 --> 09:14.980 How can it be that when a big team plays against a small one, you have to take a stand—you can't remain neutral. 09:14.980 --> 09:25.288 However, that is a matter of personal preference and a matter of ethical principles. 09:25.288 --> 09:29.695 And when it comes to neutrality, that's not enough. 09:29.695 --> 09:36.226 Neutrality isn't a matter of personal preference: Who do I like? 09:36.226 --> 09:43.132 Rather, it is a principle that we have been following for nearly 200 years now. 09:43.132 --> 09:48.380 We stand apart from wars. We ourselves do not want war. We want to serve peace. 09:48.380 --> 09:52.300 And that, in fact, is the moral stance of neutrality. 09:52.300 --> 10:03.940 The government has an obligation to maintain a neutral stance toward both sides, especially in the event of such a conflict. 10:03.940 --> 10:07.874 And so neutrality has two sides. 10:07.874 --> 10:13.374 On the one hand, it takes these sympathies into account. 10:13.374 --> 10:18.763 Well, people can… We’ve brought 90,000 Ukrainians to Switzerland—that’s the 10:18.763 --> 10:23.106 humanitarian aspect, and that remains an open question. 10:23.106 --> 10:30.395 But from a political standpoint, the government cannot show sympathy for a regime. 10:30.395 --> 10:35.862 Rather, it must remain neutral even in such a case. 10:35.862 --> 10:42.049 So, sympathy and solidarity for those affected by war. 10:42.049 --> 10:49.008 But—and this is the heart of neutrality—the essence of neutrality says: 10:49.008 --> 10:55.737 "No fraternizing with any regime, and no dividing the world into the good and the bad, as 10:55.737 --> 11:00.703 President Bush did back then with the 'Axis of Evil.'" 11:00.703 --> 11:03.094 Very good. Yes. 11:03.094 --> 11:04.000 Is that okay? 11:04.000 --> 11:08.086 That's great. Thank you very much for the interview.