1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,700 2 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:06,346 Dear viewers, we are pleased to welcome Mr. Hansjörg Stützle here in our studio today. 3 00:00:06,346 --> 00:00:07,500 It's good that you are here. 4 00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:09,573 Yes, I'm also glad to be here. 5 00:00:09,573 --> 00:00:15,796 Mr. Stützle, you have been dealing with the topic of money and finance, economics, for a good 30 years. 6 00:00:15,796 --> 00:00:22,130 And in your work, you have come into contact with very, very many areas of the financial sector. 7 00:00:22,130 --> 00:00:27,910 And currently you are the initiator of the petition "Protect cash in Europe by law". 8 00:00:27,910 --> 00:00:31,430 And in the meantime, over 400,000 people have signed it. 9 00:00:31,430 --> 00:00:34,940 That means there is apparently a certain explosiveness behind it among the people as well. 10 00:00:34,940 --> 00:00:41,530 What moved you to start this petition and what is this petition needed for? 11 00:00:41,530 --> 00:00:43,556 Yes, well, the path has been quite long. 12 00:00:43,556 --> 00:00:47,556 I have been dealing with this topic for over 15 years. 13 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:54,496 And until relatively recently, it was completely hopeless to anchor cash in law. 14 00:00:54,496 --> 00:01:01,963 Cash does have a legal anchoring, it is anchored in Article 128 of the EU Treaty. 15 00:01:01,963 --> 00:01:07,023 But almost no protection arises from that. 16 00:01:07,023 --> 00:01:14,756 And for many, many years there was no political will at all for cash to be anchored in law. 17 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:17,503 But then something changed. 18 00:01:17,503 --> 00:01:31,460 Namely, on June 28, 2023, so almost three years ago, not a cash regulation, but a regulation for the digital euro came out. 19 00:01:31,460 --> 00:01:33,950 That means the digital euro is supposed to come. 20 00:01:33,950 --> 00:01:38,260 And the European Commission issued such a regulation. 21 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:47,023 And in parallel, it was forced to also address cash, because the digital euro is supposed to become another legal tender. 22 00:01:47,023 --> 00:01:50,830 And thus they were forced to also address cash. 23 00:01:50,830 --> 00:01:56,736 And then a cash regulation also came out on the same day. 24 00:01:56,736 --> 00:02:01,703 I studied this one and was able to find enormous errors in it. 25 00:02:01,703 --> 00:02:09,523 So that means the cash regulation was designed much worse than the regulation for the digital euro. 26 00:02:09,523 --> 00:02:17,970 One of the biggest errors there was that the digital euro is supposed to get a hard acceptance requirement in retail, 27 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:19,161 cash not. 28 00:02:19,161 --> 00:02:21,120 And then I became alert. 29 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,366 And the beautiful thing about the whole matter was that through the digital euro there is now a 30 00:02:27,366 --> 00:02:31,183 possibility to anchor cash in law throughout Europe. 31 00:02:31,183 --> 00:02:32,916 And I saw this opportunity. 32 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:44,008 And on this demand that the only established legal tender, which is also proven, should get the same rights as the digital euro. 33 00:02:44,008 --> 00:02:49,367 And with this demand we are indeed pursuing the matter with politicians and all public authorities. 34 00:02:49,367 --> 00:02:54,550 Okay, and why, in your view, is preserving cash so important? 35 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:55,990 Ah, that is very multifaceted. 36 00:02:55,990 --> 00:03:02,843 So, the world without cash will look completely different from how we currently see and have it. 37 00:03:02,843 --> 00:03:07,903 Cash is basically the only physical means of payment that we have. 38 00:03:07,903 --> 00:03:12,840 In theory, gold and silver are still a means of payment, but it is also not established at all. 39 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,036 We will not be able to buy our bread rolls with gold and silver. 40 00:03:17,036 --> 00:03:21,900 Thus cash is the only physical means of payment that we currently have. 41 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:24,810 All other means of payment are digital. 42 00:03:24,810 --> 00:03:31,767 Whether Bitcoin, whether normal book money, whether the new digital euro, etc. – 43 00:03:31,767 --> 00:03:36,130 everything is basically in the digital world. 44 00:03:36,130 --> 00:03:41,520 Only cash still has this physical medium, which is immensely important. 45 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:47,490 It has something to do with the fact that children learn to handle money better, it is haptic. 46 00:03:47,490 --> 00:03:50,823 Our five senses ultimately come into play here. 47 00:03:50,823 --> 00:03:53,528 And as I said, it is infinite. 48 00:03:53,528 --> 00:04:00,191 It intervenes in families that are more resilient with cash, because they can simply bring 49 00:04:00,191 --> 00:04:03,950 cash into their immediate sphere of influence. 50 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:11,556 But it also has many civil liberties and social aspects that ultimately also intervene in cash. 51 00:04:11,556 --> 00:04:15,016 You are talking about the fact that cash is also a piece of freedom. 52 00:04:15,016 --> 00:04:19,630 What consequences will it have if cash simply disappears completely? 53 00:04:19,630 --> 00:04:25,556 Well, cash is much more freedom than one might think. Because it also intervenes in our fundamental rights. 54 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:33,420 In fact, if all money is only digital, we are locatable with every payment. 55 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:39,790 And then a logbook of our lives can also emerge, showing where we just bought something. 56 00:04:39,790 --> 00:04:43,876 Did we perhaps buy something because someone perhaps went into the red-light district? 57 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,263 I would like to put that quite neutrally for now. 58 00:04:46,263 --> 00:04:53,960 Then perhaps, if he reaches correspondingly higher ranks, he is also blackmailable in the hierarchy in a certain way. 59 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,723 But otherwise too, it intervenes in many civil liberties. 60 00:04:56,723 --> 00:05:03,903 We were able to witness that in Hong Kong in 2019, where the protests against the government also took place. 61 00:05:03,903 --> 00:05:12,843 Then the protesters rode into the city on public transport, and lo and behold, they paid only with cash. 62 00:05:12,843 --> 00:05:20,384 Because they noticed that if I pay digitally now, it is ultimately relatively clear and also provable for the 63 00:05:20,384 --> 00:05:24,145 government that one was there at the protest actions. 64 00:05:24,145 --> 00:05:29,201 So here, for example, it intervenes in the fundamental right of freedom of assembly and 65 00:05:29,201 --> 00:05:31,376 that we can participate in demonstrations. 66 00:05:31,376 --> 00:05:35,610 That is one of the fundamental rights, but also many, many others. 67 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:43,264 This is also the fundamental right that we may also have participation in public life, that, for example, we 68 00:05:43,264 --> 00:05:47,430 can get on a bus, yes, get on a bus and get from A to B. 69 00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:58,373 Today this is already no longer guaranteed in many areas, for example in Berlin, in Hamburg, in Düsseldorf, in Heidelberg, 70 00:05:58,373 --> 00:06:04,620 etc.; there, public trains and buses are already cashless today. 71 00:06:04,620 --> 00:06:11,880 In your appeal, you warned about the transparent human, about the transparent world, if cash disappears completely. 72 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,590 But there are people who see this quite differently. 73 00:06:13,590 --> 00:06:19,231 For example, there is an appeal by a movement that argues that the end of privacy is what 74 00:06:19,231 --> 00:06:23,276 first provides the basis for a truly free society. 75 00:06:23,276 --> 00:06:25,843 Because, for example, no one can be blackmailed anymore. 76 00:06:25,843 --> 00:06:27,716 How do you see this? 77 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:32,256 Well, I am of the opinion that if people demand this, they should simply do it. 78 00:06:32,256 --> 00:06:40,279 That means they should simply make their private life public and they should place three cameras in their toilet and then make 79 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:48,036 that available online to the public, and then we will see how they really mean it, by simply eliminating privacy for once. 80 00:06:48,036 --> 00:06:54,016 From my point of view, privacy is a component of a free society. 81 00:06:54,016 --> 00:07:00,230 A free society is characterized by the fact that there is freedom. 82 00:07:00,230 --> 00:07:07,843 And the more freedoms we actually have, at bottom, the more it is an indication that we are in a free society. 83 00:07:07,843 --> 00:07:15,116 And if we were to eliminate all privacy, then it is only a matter of time before this power and control from the 84 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:21,850 very top, those who at bottom do not expose themselves privately, ultimately controls everything. 85 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:30,330 So I am absolutely certain that a free society without freedom and without privacy cannot function at all. 86 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:38,743 On your homepage, you also quote a few well-known personalities such as World Bank President Aryan Bangar, India's Prime Minister 87 00:07:38,743 --> 00:07:48,230 Modi, or the heads of Deutsche Bank or Bank of America, who clearly express their support for completely abolishing cash. 88 00:07:48,230 --> 00:07:51,543 Whose interests do these people serve? How do you see it? 89 00:07:51,543 --> 00:07:52,740 Well, that varies greatly. 90 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:58,430 The banking world is relatively clear: they have a business model, namely digital payments. 91 00:07:58,430 --> 00:08:03,176 Yes, that's the Sparkassen Card, that's Visa Card, that's Mastercard, etc. 92 00:08:03,176 --> 00:08:12,680 It's a billion-dollar business, and they operate in a free market economy and simply want to make money, so for 93 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:20,160 these participants, cash is ultimately a competitor that correspondingly reduces their returns. 94 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:27,456 And with every digital payment, fees are essentially incurred, which they can also essentially collect. 95 00:08:27,456 --> 00:08:30,310 And then there's, of course, the state level. 96 00:08:30,310 --> 00:08:37,437 Modi, the Prime Minister of India, once made a very clear statement that he accordingly wishes for 97 00:08:37,437 --> 00:08:41,568 a world without cash, or a society without cash. 98 00:08:41,568 --> 00:08:48,523 So this now plays a role here: what is the state itself doing, what is its interest position? 99 00:08:48,523 --> 00:08:54,330 The states, also here in Europe, always verbally profess support for cash. 100 00:08:54,330 --> 00:08:59,570 So it's always said cash will always remain, no one wants to abolish cash. 101 00:08:59,570 --> 00:09:06,303 But caution: we will always have to compare words and deeds to see whether there is harmony 102 00:09:06,303 --> 00:09:10,303 here or whether it is even turned 180 degrees. 103 00:09:10,303 --> 00:09:15,876 So things are very, very questionable in many respects if one knows the background. 104 00:09:15,876 --> 00:09:28,508 Currently, Mr. Klingbeil is making an attempt to require every retailer to accept a digital payment system. 105 00:09:28,508 --> 00:09:33,796 This is the current push that our Finance Minister Klingbeil is now aggressively pursuing. 106 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:40,366 It is also being put across in the public media very favorably that it is now important 107 00:09:40,366 --> 00:09:43,750 that everyone can pay digitally everywhere. 108 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:48,743 However, it is not being demanded that cash must be accepted everywhere, 109 00:09:48,743 --> 00:09:53,228 because cash currently does have an acceptance requirement, but not a hard acceptance requirement. 110 00:09:53,228 --> 00:09:58,370 That means it can be refused with a simple sign on the door. 111 00:09:58,370 --> 00:10:05,505 And Mr. Klingbeil is now trying to privilege private-sector money, that is, book money, so that it 112 00:10:05,505 --> 00:10:09,316 must be accepted across the board by all retailers. 113 00:10:09,316 --> 00:10:19,705 So he is promoting digital payment, and in parallel the federal government is currently trying to push through 114 00:10:19,705 --> 00:10:28,703 a law that business expenses paid in cash are no longer deductible for a self-employed person. 115 00:10:28,703 --> 00:10:30,316 That is a total catastrophe. 116 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:39,100 That essentially forces – or would force – the self-employed to pay digitally. 117 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:45,322 Because no self-employed person, I am self-employed myself, would be able to pay my fuel 118 00:10:45,322 --> 00:10:48,600 bills, which I pay in cash, from taxed money. 119 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:55,589 It is a matter of clarity that as a self-employed person I can of course also deduct business expenses accordingly. 120 00:10:55,589 --> 00:11:03,375 That means one really has to ask whether these laws, which on the one hand promote digital payments and 121 00:11:03,375 --> 00:11:11,060 seriously harm cash, go together with the public statement that no one wants to abolish cash. 122 00:11:11,060 --> 00:11:20,076 But if one looks at the structures of cash, how the infrastructure of cash is eroding, if one looks at how the whole 123 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:27,457 construct around cash is being contaminated, one almost has to say – rather, it simply means that the 124 00:11:27,457 --> 00:11:35,436 environment around cash is getting worse and worse – that cash cannot sustain itself in the long run. 125 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:38,423 And that is actually what is also contained in these EU regulations. 126 00:11:38,423 --> 00:11:44,900 On the one hand, the e-euro, which is protected, which therefore must be accepted everywhere. 127 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:48,250 And on the other hand, cash, where there is such a vague statement. 128 00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:52,470 Yes, one should be able to pay with cash, but that is not mandatory in that sense. 129 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:53,740 So that's how it goes everywhere. 130 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:56,523 So now we're back to the government topic. 131 00:11:56,523 --> 00:12:00,950 So that is a European level, where this cash regulation is. 132 00:12:00,950 --> 00:12:09,925 When this cash regulation was introduced by the European Commission, according to our research, it contained a 133 00:12:09,925 --> 00:12:14,996 total of 13 most serious disadvantages compared to cash. 134 00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:21,982 In one matter, we achieved a huge success, getting it through to 90, 95 percent. 135 00:12:21,982 --> 00:12:29,975 And that is, cash should now also get a hard acceptance requirement in retail, meaning that cafés, 136 00:12:29,975 --> 00:12:35,263 restaurants, etc. can no longer refuse cash, a huge success. 137 00:12:35,263 --> 00:12:38,963 That was then also incorporated into the cash regulation. 138 00:12:38,963 --> 00:12:42,076 But beware, the devil is always in the detail. 139 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:47,690 They have now introduced a machine regulation. 140 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:57,803 Namely an exception that wherever the payment process takes place via machines, cash can be refused. 141 00:12:57,803 --> 00:13:02,023 That means, what does that mean? After all, we are increasingly in a machine world today. 142 00:13:02,023 --> 00:13:04,140 For example, we get on a bus. 143 00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:09,343 More and more often we can no longer pay directly to the bus driver, but via a machine. 144 00:13:09,343 --> 00:13:13,003 We are at a stop, there may be ticket machines. 145 00:13:13,003 --> 00:13:15,736 We are at the train station, ticket machines. 146 00:13:15,736 --> 00:13:19,420 We are at a parking garage or parking lots, machines. 147 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:27,383 We are partly also at swimming pools today, where the ticket is paid via machines, public toilets. 148 00:13:27,383 --> 00:13:35,140 And it is precisely via this path and the Cash Ordinance, as it currently stands in the so-called trilogue negotiations 149 00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:39,240 and is being negotiated, that this ATM rule is included. 150 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,582 And it would be catastrophic, and it would also massively restrict our fundamental 151 00:13:43,582 --> 00:13:46,903 rights of public participation, to pay with cash. 152 00:13:46,903 --> 00:13:54,282 And that is in there. This ATM rule must urgently be removed, because here too the digital euro is 153 00:13:54,282 --> 00:13:58,976 massively favored, namely it must de facto be accepted there. 154 00:13:58,976 --> 00:14:06,943 Because everywhere a digital means of payment is accepted at ATMs, the digital euro must also be accepted. 155 00:14:06,943 --> 00:14:10,696 So everything is being promoted in a very indirect way. 156 00:14:10,696 --> 00:14:15,743 And that is the first major, quite enormous and dangerous exception. 157 00:14:15,743 --> 00:14:18,830 But there is still a second, very major exception. 158 00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:26,932 Namely, they have a clause in there that the nation-state of the EU, so we have 27 EU countries and 159 00:14:26,932 --> 00:14:31,900 21 euro currency areas, such as Germany for example. 160 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:38,707 And they have an exception in there that the state can refuse cash at its authorities if it 161 00:14:38,707 --> 00:14:42,710 argues it with the topic of "public interest." 162 00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:51,297 A public interest could, for example, be – yes, because of combating terrorism and undeclared work, tax evasion, 163 00:14:51,297 --> 00:15:00,390 etc. – we must restrict cash there and there in order to achieve better tax negotiations here or whatever. 164 00:15:00,390 --> 00:15:10,639 But there is an internal paper from the Council of Europe stating that not only criminality etc. entitles authorities to 165 00:15:10,639 --> 00:15:16,843 refuse cash, but rather to make authorities more efficient. 166 00:15:16,843 --> 00:15:20,532 And that is basically a gateway for everything. 167 00:15:20,532 --> 00:15:26,902 Because to make things more efficient, we simply use only one means of payment, namely digital means of payment, and we 168 00:15:26,902 --> 00:15:30,300 simply eliminate the second cash register system, namely cash. 169 00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:38,240 That is much better and more rational for us as an authority, and we can save costs as a result. 170 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:45,770 And through this back door, it would be possible—something we unfortunately see more and more often today—for 171 00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:53,943 citizens' offices to refuse cash, for recycling centers, for vehicle registration offices, etc., to refuse cash. 172 00:15:53,943 --> 00:15:59,283 And here we must again observe whether words and actions go together. 173 00:15:59,283 --> 00:16:04,216 That is, the word is that the state says cash is always , no one wants to abolish cash. 174 00:16:04,216 --> 00:16:08,676 But it does so itself in its own authorities. 175 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:11,263 And what actually isn't right here? 176 00:16:11,263 --> 00:16:17,980 And that also includes clarity for citizens themselves to express an opinion for themselves. 177 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:19,130 Why is this happening? 178 00:16:19,130 --> 00:16:21,863 Is this supposed to happen through the back door now? 179 00:16:21,863 --> 00:16:27,010 And I think, and I would also like to encourage, to think about this for oneself. 180 00:16:27,010 --> 00:16:33,340 Perhaps to round it off, I have an educational video, a 12-minute educational video. 181 00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:34,270 Do you want to say something about that? 182 00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:38,650 No, no, I watched it, it's very exciting. 183 00:16:38,650 --> 00:16:41,543 It documents very well what is happening there. 184 00:16:41,543 --> 00:16:47,996 So, it's a 12-minute educational video that takes a closer look at this cash regulation. 185 00:16:47,996 --> 00:16:54,100 And we have also written specialist articles that can be taken from the video description. 186 00:16:54,100 --> 00:17:02,295 And regarding this video, for example, that came out via Professor Rieck's channel, with I don't know, almost 187 00:17:02,295 --> 00:17:10,290 400,000 views etc., that indeed—we have never been attacked so far—because it is so technically flawless. 188 00:17:10,290 --> 00:17:17,172 So, I actually recommend to everyone, perhaps you want to link it too, etc., to watch these 189 00:17:17,172 --> 00:17:20,600 12 minutes and simply form your own opinion. 190 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:26,008 And that's what I stand for, that people get the data and information that is 191 00:17:26,008 --> 00:17:29,063 usually not published by the established media. 192 00:17:29,063 --> 00:17:30,143 That makes me very, very sad. 193 00:17:30,143 --> 00:17:35,330 The public broadcasters also remain almost completely silent about it. 194 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:44,824 And that everyone – we need pros and cons – we need a 360-degree view of the data and information, so that citizens themselves 195 00:17:44,824 --> 00:17:50,343 are in a position to make a qualified and mature judgment. 196 00:17:50,343 --> 00:17:52,530 Yes, that's why we're here. 197 00:17:52,530 --> 00:17:56,390 That's good, just to – let's say – perhaps broaden the horizon a bit. 198 00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:57,588 And you just mentioned it. 199 00:17:57,588 --> 00:18:02,163 Well, in many areas it's already a reality today that I can no longer pay with cash. 200 00:18:02,163 --> 00:18:09,681 And that's really the, for me, somewhat the final question: what else can we do from your perspective 201 00:18:09,681 --> 00:18:15,473 to help cash, let's say, yes, gain a bit more ground? 202 00:18:15,473 --> 00:18:18,470 Well, one thing of course makes me very sad. 203 00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:25,503 More and more shops are refusing cash, and there are no protest non-purchases. 204 00:18:25,503 --> 00:18:31,992 So along the lines of simply imposing an embargo on a shop and saying, I don't think it's right that the abolition of cash is 205 00:18:31,992 --> 00:18:35,570 actually happening through such shops, and that one avoids it. 206 00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:39,783 For me it's clear: I never shop where cash is refused. 207 00:18:39,783 --> 00:18:41,903 For me that's a no-go. 208 00:18:41,903 --> 00:18:43,996 But that's basically a done deal. 209 00:18:43,996 --> 00:18:49,036 Society is obviously already so accustomed to digital payments. 210 00:18:49,036 --> 00:18:52,290 But that's one thing, for example. 211 00:18:52,290 --> 00:19:00,583 Another thing is, I would be very happy if even more people signed the cash petition. 212 00:19:00,583 --> 00:19:04,350 We currently have about 406,000 signatures. 213 00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:08,743 We would very much like to reach at least half a million. 214 00:19:08,743 --> 00:19:13,966 Because simply through that – every number that goes higher – whether I have 400,000 or half a million, 215 00:19:13,966 --> 00:19:17,016 that also has an effect on the psychological level. 216 00:19:17,016 --> 00:19:23,183 And that also currently gives us the opportunity to actually approach government agencies. 217 00:19:23,183 --> 00:19:28,876 We have already been to the European Parliament, where we handed over the petition. 218 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:34,043 Next week we will be at the Federal Ministry of Finance in Berlin, where we will hand it over. 219 00:19:34,043 --> 00:19:39,983 And we are almost the only voice representing the will of the citizen. 220 00:19:39,983 --> 00:19:45,323 And indeed, they also have to listen to us in part, though often they do not want to. 221 00:19:45,323 --> 00:19:51,764 And the stronger we basically become, the more we can simply emphasize this demand 222 00:19:51,764 --> 00:19:55,403 that cash will truly endure in the long term. 223 00:19:55,403 --> 00:19:57,430 So we are very glad about that. 224 00:19:57,430 --> 00:20:04,684 Because on the other hand, I am also very aware that even if we could still achieve some improvements in 225 00:20:04,684 --> 00:20:09,190 the cash demand, which would be very, very important. 226 00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:14,743 There will nevertheless be enough attacks on cash in the coming decades. 227 00:20:14,743 --> 00:20:23,043 Because in parallel we are building a cash-preservation community, a small cash lobby. 228 00:20:23,043 --> 00:20:31,319 We currently have no less than 136,000 people, so when I write a newsletter or when we launch 229 00:20:31,319 --> 00:20:35,830 campaigns, it currently reaches 136,000 people. 230 00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:44,516 And I am absolutely certain that over the years, even if we could still record further successes, we are massively under attack. 231 00:20:44,516 --> 00:20:50,995 Not us, but we know that Mr. Klingbeil, Ministry of Finance, is massively applying pressure on the current 232 00:20:50,995 --> 00:20:58,483 negotiations in the trilogue talks regarding the cash regulation to further reduce what we have already achieved. 233 00:20:58,483 --> 00:21:01,350 So that is a very dangerous constellation. 234 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:07,227 And I am absolutely certain that if we do not organize accordingly, and I am trying to organize for 235 00:21:07,227 --> 00:21:13,248 cash, we will also be exposed to many attacks in the future that we cannot defend ourselves against. 236 00:21:13,248 --> 00:21:14,796 So we simply have to use this as an opportunity. 237 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:16,480 That is the second point. 238 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:25,443 And the third point, I really want to address everyone individually, no matter where the cameras are now, pay with cash. 239 00:21:25,443 --> 00:21:31,536 Because ultimately, how often we pay with cash is what decides. 240 00:21:31,536 --> 00:21:39,823 If the cash payment rate falls below 25, 30 percent, the shops no longer want to accept cash. 241 00:21:39,823 --> 00:21:50,910 And if the cash payment rate falls below 10 or 15 percent, then the so-called proportionality principle comes into play. 242 00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:58,206 That means, in our democracy or also at our political level, it is always about whether it is proportionate to 243 00:21:58,206 --> 00:22:05,750 maintain the infrastructure of cash, which does cost money, whether it is proportionate to maintain these costs. 244 00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:13,223 And that is basically what they are aiming for, that the cash payment rate falls as far as it has, for example, in Scandinavia. 245 00:22:13,223 --> 00:22:17,036 And there, this proportionality principle is already increasingly taking effect. 246 00:22:17,036 --> 00:22:22,023 And therefore my request to all viewers: pay with cash as often as you can. 247 00:22:22,023 --> 00:22:30,956 And by doing so, you are saying nothing other than each time – YES to cash and YES to freedom. 248 00:22:30,956 --> 00:22:31,665 Yes, many thanks. 249 00:22:31,665 --> 00:22:35,163 Perhaps briefly the question of how much longer the petition will run? 250 00:22:35,163 --> 00:22:38,870 Well, we cannot say with 100 percent certainty. 251 00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:44,870 It depends on when it is actually adopted in the Council of Europe. 252 00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:50,616 That could still happen until December 15, 2026. 253 00:22:50,616 --> 00:22:58,713 Whether the decisive trilogue negotiations are already currently taking place behind closed doors. 254 00:22:58,713 --> 00:23:02,296 Okay, Mr. Stützle, I thank you. 255 00:23:02,296 --> 00:23:04,601 We thank you for this enlightening conversation. 256 00:23:04,601 --> 00:23:11,597 And I think we may all wish for ourselves that we have much success in constructively continuing work on the many 257 00:23:11,597 --> 00:23:15,540 contemporary issues that are necessary for a free society. 258 00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:16,440 Many thanks. 259 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,313 Thank you as well. 260 00:23:17,313 --> 00:23:17,633 Thanks.