WEBVTT 00:00.700 --> 00:06.346 Dear viewers, we are pleased to welcome Mr. Hansjörg Stützle here in our studio today. 00:06.346 --> 00:07.500 It's good that you are here. 00:07.500 --> 00:09.573 Yes, I'm also glad to be here. 00:09.573 --> 00:15.796 Mr. Stützle, you have been dealing with the topic of money and finance, economics, for a good 30 years. 00:15.796 --> 00:22.130 And in your work, you have come into contact with very, very many areas of the financial sector. 00:22.130 --> 00:27.910 And currently you are the initiator of the petition "Protect cash in Europe by law". 00:27.910 --> 00:31.430 And in the meantime, over 400,000 people have signed it. 00:31.430 --> 00:34.940 That means there is apparently a certain explosiveness behind it among the people as well. 00:34.940 --> 00:41.530 What moved you to start this petition and what is this petition needed for? 00:41.530 --> 00:43.556 Yes, well, the path has been quite long. 00:43.556 --> 00:47.556 I have been dealing with this topic for over 15 years. 00:47.556 --> 00:54.496 And until relatively recently, it was completely hopeless to anchor cash in law. 00:54.496 --> 01:01.963 Cash does have a legal anchoring, it is anchored in Article 128 of the EU Treaty. 01:01.963 --> 01:07.023 But almost no protection arises from that. 01:07.023 --> 01:14.756 And for many, many years there was no political will at all for cash to be anchored in law. 01:14.756 --> 01:17.503 But then something changed. 01:17.503 --> 01:31.460 Namely, on June 28, 2023, so almost three years ago, not a cash regulation, but a regulation for the digital euro came out. 01:31.460 --> 01:33.950 That means the digital euro is supposed to come. 01:33.950 --> 01:38.260 And the European Commission issued such a regulation. 01:38.260 --> 01:47.023 And in parallel, it was forced to also address cash, because the digital euro is supposed to become another legal tender. 01:47.023 --> 01:50.830 And thus they were forced to also address cash. 01:50.830 --> 01:56.736 And then a cash regulation also came out on the same day. 01:56.736 --> 02:01.703 I studied this one and was able to find enormous errors in it. 02:01.703 --> 02:09.523 So that means the cash regulation was designed much worse than the regulation for the digital euro. 02:09.523 --> 02:17.970 One of the biggest errors there was that the digital euro is supposed to get a hard acceptance requirement in retail, 02:17.970 --> 02:19.161 cash not. 02:19.161 --> 02:21.120 And then I became alert. 02:21.120 --> 02:27.366 And the beautiful thing about the whole matter was that through the digital euro there is now a 02:27.366 --> 02:31.183 possibility to anchor cash in law throughout Europe. 02:31.183 --> 02:32.916 And I saw this opportunity. 02:32.916 --> 02:44.008 And on this demand that the only established legal tender, which is also proven, should get the same rights as the digital euro. 02:44.008 --> 02:49.367 And with this demand we are indeed pursuing the matter with politicians and all public authorities. 02:49.367 --> 02:54.550 Okay, and why, in your view, is preserving cash so important? 02:54.550 --> 02:55.990 Ah, that is very multifaceted. 02:55.990 --> 03:02.843 So, the world without cash will look completely different from how we currently see and have it. 03:02.843 --> 03:07.903 Cash is basically the only physical means of payment that we have. 03:07.903 --> 03:12.840 In theory, gold and silver are still a means of payment, but it is also not established at all. 03:12.840 --> 03:17.036 We will not be able to buy our bread rolls with gold and silver. 03:17.036 --> 03:21.900 Thus cash is the only physical means of payment that we currently have. 03:21.900 --> 03:24.810 All other means of payment are digital. 03:24.810 --> 03:31.767 Whether Bitcoin, whether normal book money, whether the new digital euro, etc. – 03:31.767 --> 03:36.130 everything is basically in the digital world. 03:36.130 --> 03:41.520 Only cash still has this physical medium, which is immensely important. 03:41.520 --> 03:47.490 It has something to do with the fact that children learn to handle money better, it is haptic. 03:47.490 --> 03:50.823 Our five senses ultimately come into play here. 03:50.823 --> 03:53.528 And as I said, it is infinite. 03:53.528 --> 04:00.191 It intervenes in families that are more resilient with cash, because they can simply bring 04:00.191 --> 04:03.950 cash into their immediate sphere of influence. 04:03.950 --> 04:11.556 But it also has many civil liberties and social aspects that ultimately also intervene in cash. 04:11.556 --> 04:15.016 You are talking about the fact that cash is also a piece of freedom. 04:15.016 --> 04:19.630 What consequences will it have if cash simply disappears completely? 04:19.630 --> 04:25.556 Well, cash is much more freedom than one might think. Because it also intervenes in our fundamental rights. 04:25.556 --> 04:33.420 In fact, if all money is only digital, we are locatable with every payment. 04:33.420 --> 04:39.790 And then a logbook of our lives can also emerge, showing where we just bought something. 04:39.790 --> 04:43.876 Did we perhaps buy something because someone perhaps went into the red-light district? 04:43.876 --> 04:46.263 I would like to put that quite neutrally for now. 04:46.263 --> 04:53.960 Then perhaps, if he reaches correspondingly higher ranks, he is also blackmailable in the hierarchy in a certain way. 04:53.960 --> 04:56.723 But otherwise too, it intervenes in many civil liberties. 04:56.723 --> 05:03.903 We were able to witness that in Hong Kong in 2019, where the protests against the government also took place. 05:03.903 --> 05:12.843 Then the protesters rode into the city on public transport, and lo and behold, they paid only with cash. 05:12.843 --> 05:20.384 Because they noticed that if I pay digitally now, it is ultimately relatively clear and also provable for the 05:20.384 --> 05:24.145 government that one was there at the protest actions. 05:24.145 --> 05:29.201 So here, for example, it intervenes in the fundamental right of freedom of assembly and 05:29.201 --> 05:31.376 that we can participate in demonstrations. 05:31.376 --> 05:35.610 That is one of the fundamental rights, but also many, many others. 05:35.610 --> 05:43.264 This is also the fundamental right that we may also have participation in public life, that, for example, we 05:43.264 --> 05:47.430 can get on a bus, yes, get on a bus and get from A to B. 05:47.430 --> 05:58.373 Today this is already no longer guaranteed in many areas, for example in Berlin, in Hamburg, in Düsseldorf, in Heidelberg, 05:58.373 --> 06:04.620 etc.; there, public trains and buses are already cashless today. 06:04.620 --> 06:11.880 In your appeal, you warned about the transparent human, about the transparent world, if cash disappears completely. 06:11.880 --> 06:13.590 But there are people who see this quite differently. 06:13.590 --> 06:19.231 For example, there is an appeal by a movement that argues that the end of privacy is what 06:19.231 --> 06:23.276 first provides the basis for a truly free society. 06:23.276 --> 06:25.843 Because, for example, no one can be blackmailed anymore. 06:25.843 --> 06:27.716 How do you see this? 06:27.716 --> 06:32.256 Well, I am of the opinion that if people demand this, they should simply do it. 06:32.256 --> 06:40.279 That means they should simply make their private life public and they should place three cameras in their toilet and then make 06:40.279 --> 06:48.036 that available online to the public, and then we will see how they really mean it, by simply eliminating privacy for once. 06:48.036 --> 06:54.016 From my point of view, privacy is a component of a free society. 06:54.016 --> 07:00.230 A free society is characterized by the fact that there is freedom. 07:00.230 --> 07:07.843 And the more freedoms we actually have, at bottom, the more it is an indication that we are in a free society. 07:07.843 --> 07:15.116 And if we were to eliminate all privacy, then it is only a matter of time before this power and control from the 07:15.116 --> 07:21.850 very top, those who at bottom do not expose themselves privately, ultimately controls everything. 07:21.850 --> 07:30.330 So I am absolutely certain that a free society without freedom and without privacy cannot function at all. 07:30.330 --> 07:38.743 On your homepage, you also quote a few well-known personalities such as World Bank President Aryan Bangar, India's Prime Minister 07:38.743 --> 07:48.230 Modi, or the heads of Deutsche Bank or Bank of America, who clearly express their support for completely abolishing cash. 07:48.230 --> 07:51.543 Whose interests do these people serve? How do you see it? 07:51.543 --> 07:52.740 Well, that varies greatly. 07:52.740 --> 07:58.430 The banking world is relatively clear: they have a business model, namely digital payments. 07:58.430 --> 08:03.176 Yes, that's the Sparkassen Card, that's Visa Card, that's Mastercard, etc. 08:03.176 --> 08:12.680 It's a billion-dollar business, and they operate in a free market economy and simply want to make money, so for 08:12.680 --> 08:20.160 these participants, cash is ultimately a competitor that correspondingly reduces their returns. 08:20.160 --> 08:27.456 And with every digital payment, fees are essentially incurred, which they can also essentially collect. 08:27.456 --> 08:30.310 And then there's, of course, the state level. 08:30.310 --> 08:37.437 Modi, the Prime Minister of India, once made a very clear statement that he accordingly wishes for 08:37.437 --> 08:41.568 a world without cash, or a society without cash. 08:41.568 --> 08:48.523 So this now plays a role here: what is the state itself doing, what is its interest position? 08:48.523 --> 08:54.330 The states, also here in Europe, always verbally profess support for cash. 08:54.330 --> 08:59.570 So it's always said cash will always remain, no one wants to abolish cash. 08:59.570 --> 09:06.303 But caution: we will always have to compare words and deeds to see whether there is harmony 09:06.303 --> 09:10.303 here or whether it is even turned 180 degrees. 09:10.303 --> 09:15.876 So things are very, very questionable in many respects if one knows the background. 09:15.876 --> 09:28.508 Currently, Mr. Klingbeil is making an attempt to require every retailer to accept a digital payment system. 09:28.508 --> 09:33.796 This is the current push that our Finance Minister Klingbeil is now aggressively pursuing. 09:33.796 --> 09:40.366 It is also being put across in the public media very favorably that it is now important 09:40.366 --> 09:43.750 that everyone can pay digitally everywhere. 09:43.750 --> 09:48.743 However, it is not being demanded that cash must be accepted everywhere, 09:48.743 --> 09:53.228 because cash currently does have an acceptance requirement, but not a hard acceptance requirement. 09:53.228 --> 09:58.370 That means it can be refused with a simple sign on the door. 09:58.370 --> 10:05.505 And Mr. Klingbeil is now trying to privilege private-sector money, that is, book money, so that it 10:05.505 --> 10:09.316 must be accepted across the board by all retailers. 10:09.316 --> 10:19.705 So he is promoting digital payment, and in parallel the federal government is currently trying to push through 10:19.705 --> 10:28.703 a law that business expenses paid in cash are no longer deductible for a self-employed person. 10:28.703 --> 10:30.316 That is a total catastrophe. 10:30.316 --> 10:39.100 That essentially forces – or would force – the self-employed to pay digitally. 10:39.100 --> 10:45.322 Because no self-employed person, I am self-employed myself, would be able to pay my fuel 10:45.322 --> 10:48.600 bills, which I pay in cash, from taxed money. 10:48.600 --> 10:55.589 It is a matter of clarity that as a self-employed person I can of course also deduct business expenses accordingly. 10:55.589 --> 11:03.375 That means one really has to ask whether these laws, which on the one hand promote digital payments and 11:03.375 --> 11:11.060 seriously harm cash, go together with the public statement that no one wants to abolish cash. 11:11.060 --> 11:20.076 But if one looks at the structures of cash, how the infrastructure of cash is eroding, if one looks at how the whole 11:20.076 --> 11:27.457 construct around cash is being contaminated, one almost has to say – rather, it simply means that the 11:27.457 --> 11:35.436 environment around cash is getting worse and worse – that cash cannot sustain itself in the long run. 11:35.436 --> 11:38.423 And that is actually what is also contained in these EU regulations. 11:38.423 --> 11:44.900 On the one hand, the e-euro, which is protected, which therefore must be accepted everywhere. 11:44.900 --> 11:48.250 And on the other hand, cash, where there is such a vague statement. 11:48.250 --> 11:52.470 Yes, one should be able to pay with cash, but that is not mandatory in that sense. 11:52.470 --> 11:53.740 So that's how it goes everywhere. 11:53.740 --> 11:56.523 So now we're back to the government topic. 11:56.523 --> 12:00.950 So that is a European level, where this cash regulation is. 12:00.950 --> 12:09.925 When this cash regulation was introduced by the European Commission, according to our research, it contained a 12:09.925 --> 12:14.996 total of 13 most serious disadvantages compared to cash. 12:14.996 --> 12:21.982 In one matter, we achieved a huge success, getting it through to 90, 95 percent. 12:21.982 --> 12:29.975 And that is, cash should now also get a hard acceptance requirement in retail, meaning that cafés, 12:29.975 --> 12:35.263 restaurants, etc. can no longer refuse cash, a huge success. 12:35.263 --> 12:38.963 That was then also incorporated into the cash regulation. 12:38.963 --> 12:42.076 But beware, the devil is always in the detail. 12:42.076 --> 12:47.690 They have now introduced a machine regulation. 12:47.690 --> 12:57.803 Namely an exception that wherever the payment process takes place via machines, cash can be refused. 12:57.803 --> 13:02.023 That means, what does that mean? After all, we are increasingly in a machine world today. 13:02.023 --> 13:04.140 For example, we get on a bus. 13:04.140 --> 13:09.343 More and more often we can no longer pay directly to the bus driver, but via a machine. 13:09.343 --> 13:13.003 We are at a stop, there may be ticket machines. 13:13.003 --> 13:15.736 We are at the train station, ticket machines. 13:15.736 --> 13:19.420 We are at a parking garage or parking lots, machines. 13:19.420 --> 13:27.383 We are partly also at swimming pools today, where the ticket is paid via machines, public toilets. 13:27.383 --> 13:35.140 And it is precisely via this path and the Cash Ordinance, as it currently stands in the so-called trilogue negotiations 13:35.140 --> 13:39.240 and is being negotiated, that this ATM rule is included. 13:39.240 --> 13:43.582 And it would be catastrophic, and it would also massively restrict our fundamental 13:43.582 --> 13:46.903 rights of public participation, to pay with cash. 13:46.903 --> 13:54.282 And that is in there. This ATM rule must urgently be removed, because here too the digital euro is 13:54.282 --> 13:58.976 massively favored, namely it must de facto be accepted there. 13:58.976 --> 14:06.943 Because everywhere a digital means of payment is accepted at ATMs, the digital euro must also be accepted. 14:06.943 --> 14:10.696 So everything is being promoted in a very indirect way. 14:10.696 --> 14:15.743 And that is the first major, quite enormous and dangerous exception. 14:15.743 --> 14:18.830 But there is still a second, very major exception. 14:18.830 --> 14:26.932 Namely, they have a clause in there that the nation-state of the EU, so we have 27 EU countries and 14:26.932 --> 14:31.900 21 euro currency areas, such as Germany for example. 14:31.900 --> 14:38.707 And they have an exception in there that the state can refuse cash at its authorities if it 14:38.707 --> 14:42.710 argues it with the topic of "public interest." 14:42.710 --> 14:51.297 A public interest could, for example, be – yes, because of combating terrorism and undeclared work, tax evasion, 14:51.297 --> 15:00.390 etc. – we must restrict cash there and there in order to achieve better tax negotiations here or whatever. 15:00.390 --> 15:10.639 But there is an internal paper from the Council of Europe stating that not only criminality etc. entitles authorities to 15:10.639 --> 15:16.843 refuse cash, but rather to make authorities more efficient. 15:16.843 --> 15:20.532 And that is basically a gateway for everything. 15:20.532 --> 15:26.902 Because to make things more efficient, we simply use only one means of payment, namely digital means of payment, and we 15:26.902 --> 15:30.300 simply eliminate the second cash register system, namely cash. 15:30.300 --> 15:38.240 That is much better and more rational for us as an authority, and we can save costs as a result. 15:38.240 --> 15:45.770 And through this back door, it would be possible—something we unfortunately see more and more often today—for 15:45.770 --> 15:53.943 citizens' offices to refuse cash, for recycling centers, for vehicle registration offices, etc., to refuse cash. 15:53.943 --> 15:59.283 And here we must again observe whether words and actions go together. 15:59.283 --> 16:04.216 That is, the word is that the state says cash is always , no one wants to abolish cash. 16:04.216 --> 16:08.676 But it does so itself in its own authorities. 16:08.676 --> 16:11.263 And what actually isn't right here? 16:11.263 --> 16:17.980 And that also includes clarity for citizens themselves to express an opinion for themselves. 16:17.980 --> 16:19.130 Why is this happening? 16:19.130 --> 16:21.863 Is this supposed to happen through the back door now? 16:21.863 --> 16:27.010 And I think, and I would also like to encourage, to think about this for oneself. 16:27.010 --> 16:33.340 Perhaps to round it off, I have an educational video, a 12-minute educational video. 16:33.340 --> 16:34.270 Do you want to say something about that? 16:34.270 --> 16:38.650 No, no, I watched it, it's very exciting. 16:38.650 --> 16:41.543 It documents very well what is happening there. 16:41.543 --> 16:47.996 So, it's a 12-minute educational video that takes a closer look at this cash regulation. 16:47.996 --> 16:54.100 And we have also written specialist articles that can be taken from the video description. 16:54.100 --> 17:02.295 And regarding this video, for example, that came out via Professor Rieck's channel, with I don't know, almost 17:02.295 --> 17:10.290 400,000 views etc., that indeed—we have never been attacked so far—because it is so technically flawless. 17:10.290 --> 17:17.172 So, I actually recommend to everyone, perhaps you want to link it too, etc., to watch these 17:17.172 --> 17:20.600 12 minutes and simply form your own opinion. 17:20.600 --> 17:26.008 And that's what I stand for, that people get the data and information that is 17:26.008 --> 17:29.063 usually not published by the established media. 17:29.063 --> 17:30.143 That makes me very, very sad. 17:30.143 --> 17:35.330 The public broadcasters also remain almost completely silent about it. 17:35.330 --> 17:44.824 And that everyone – we need pros and cons – we need a 360-degree view of the data and information, so that citizens themselves 17:44.824 --> 17:50.343 are in a position to make a qualified and mature judgment. 17:50.343 --> 17:52.530 Yes, that's why we're here. 17:52.530 --> 17:56.390 That's good, just to – let's say – perhaps broaden the horizon a bit. 17:56.390 --> 17:57.588 And you just mentioned it. 17:57.588 --> 18:02.163 Well, in many areas it's already a reality today that I can no longer pay with cash. 18:02.163 --> 18:09.681 And that's really the, for me, somewhat the final question: what else can we do from your perspective 18:09.681 --> 18:15.473 to help cash, let's say, yes, gain a bit more ground? 18:15.473 --> 18:18.470 Well, one thing of course makes me very sad. 18:18.470 --> 18:25.503 More and more shops are refusing cash, and there are no protest non-purchases. 18:25.503 --> 18:31.992 So along the lines of simply imposing an embargo on a shop and saying, I don't think it's right that the abolition of cash is 18:31.992 --> 18:35.570 actually happening through such shops, and that one avoids it. 18:35.570 --> 18:39.783 For me it's clear: I never shop where cash is refused. 18:39.783 --> 18:41.903 For me that's a no-go. 18:41.903 --> 18:43.996 But that's basically a done deal. 18:43.996 --> 18:49.036 Society is obviously already so accustomed to digital payments. 18:49.036 --> 18:52.290 But that's one thing, for example. 18:52.290 --> 19:00.583 Another thing is, I would be very happy if even more people signed the cash petition. 19:00.583 --> 19:04.350 We currently have about 406,000 signatures. 19:04.350 --> 19:08.743 We would very much like to reach at least half a million. 19:08.743 --> 19:13.966 Because simply through that – every number that goes higher – whether I have 400,000 or half a million, 19:13.966 --> 19:17.016 that also has an effect on the psychological level. 19:17.016 --> 19:23.183 And that also currently gives us the opportunity to actually approach government agencies. 19:23.183 --> 19:28.876 We have already been to the European Parliament, where we handed over the petition. 19:28.876 --> 19:34.043 Next week we will be at the Federal Ministry of Finance in Berlin, where we will hand it over. 19:34.043 --> 19:39.983 And we are almost the only voice representing the will of the citizen. 19:39.983 --> 19:45.323 And indeed, they also have to listen to us in part, though often they do not want to. 19:45.323 --> 19:51.764 And the stronger we basically become, the more we can simply emphasize this demand 19:51.764 --> 19:55.403 that cash will truly endure in the long term. 19:55.403 --> 19:57.430 So we are very glad about that. 19:57.430 --> 20:04.684 Because on the other hand, I am also very aware that even if we could still achieve some improvements in 20:04.684 --> 20:09.190 the cash demand, which would be very, very important. 20:09.190 --> 20:14.743 There will nevertheless be enough attacks on cash in the coming decades. 20:14.743 --> 20:23.043 Because in parallel we are building a cash-preservation community, a small cash lobby. 20:23.043 --> 20:31.319 We currently have no less than 136,000 people, so when I write a newsletter or when we launch 20:31.319 --> 20:35.830 campaigns, it currently reaches 136,000 people. 20:35.830 --> 20:44.516 And I am absolutely certain that over the years, even if we could still record further successes, we are massively under attack. 20:44.516 --> 20:50.995 Not us, but we know that Mr. Klingbeil, Ministry of Finance, is massively applying pressure on the current 20:50.995 --> 20:58.483 negotiations in the trilogue talks regarding the cash regulation to further reduce what we have already achieved. 20:58.483 --> 21:01.350 So that is a very dangerous constellation. 21:01.350 --> 21:07.227 And I am absolutely certain that if we do not organize accordingly, and I am trying to organize for 21:07.227 --> 21:13.248 cash, we will also be exposed to many attacks in the future that we cannot defend ourselves against. 21:13.248 --> 21:14.796 So we simply have to use this as an opportunity. 21:14.796 --> 21:16.480 That is the second point. 21:16.480 --> 21:25.443 And the third point, I really want to address everyone individually, no matter where the cameras are now, pay with cash. 21:25.443 --> 21:31.536 Because ultimately, how often we pay with cash is what decides. 21:31.536 --> 21:39.823 If the cash payment rate falls below 25, 30 percent, the shops no longer want to accept cash. 21:39.823 --> 21:50.910 And if the cash payment rate falls below 10 or 15 percent, then the so-called proportionality principle comes into play. 21:50.910 --> 21:58.206 That means, in our democracy or also at our political level, it is always about whether it is proportionate to 21:58.206 --> 22:05.750 maintain the infrastructure of cash, which does cost money, whether it is proportionate to maintain these costs. 22:05.750 --> 22:13.223 And that is basically what they are aiming for, that the cash payment rate falls as far as it has, for example, in Scandinavia. 22:13.223 --> 22:17.036 And there, this proportionality principle is already increasingly taking effect. 22:17.036 --> 22:22.023 And therefore my request to all viewers: pay with cash as often as you can. 22:22.023 --> 22:30.956 And by doing so, you are saying nothing other than each time – YES to cash and YES to freedom. 22:30.956 --> 22:31.665 Yes, many thanks. 22:31.665 --> 22:35.163 Perhaps briefly the question of how much longer the petition will run? 22:35.163 --> 22:38.870 Well, we cannot say with 100 percent certainty. 22:38.870 --> 22:44.870 It depends on when it is actually adopted in the Council of Europe. 22:44.870 --> 22:50.616 That could still happen until December 15, 2026. 22:50.616 --> 22:58.713 Whether the decisive trilogue negotiations are already currently taking place behind closed doors. 22:58.713 --> 23:02.296 Okay, Mr. Stützle, I thank you. 23:02.296 --> 23:04.601 We thank you for this enlightening conversation. 23:04.601 --> 23:11.597 And I think we may all wish for ourselves that we have much success in constructively continuing work on the many 23:11.597 --> 23:15.540 contemporary issues that are necessary for a free society. 23:15.540 --> 23:16.440 Many thanks. 23:16.440 --> 23:17.313 Thank you as well. 23:17.313 --> 23:17.633 Thanks.