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Deceitful "junk science" categorizes genetic Covid injection like ordinary vaccines! - Interview with Nick Hudson
Watch the second part of the instructive Kla.tv interview with Nick Hudson, chairman of PANDA here!
Crises promote our potential to stand up and be courageous!
[continue reading]
Dan: Okay, switching gears a little bit, Nick, I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you – I think I know the answer – have you got the jab?
Nick: It's the first time I've ever been asked the question on air, and I have not gotten the jab. And I will not get the jab. I'm a recovered... COVID recovery, which means that I have robust and long... robust and durable immunity. The disease even then was very mild for me, I just... I wouldn't I wouldn't even describe it as a cold. It was a completely mild disease course. And but even if that was not the case, I would not get the jab knowing what I know now. I think I think a year ago, I might have been, you know, (been) of the mind, well, maybe if you know, if you... if you're immunologically naive to it, to the disease, then taking the vaccine makes sense. I might have had that perspective, I no longer have it for because of what I've seen the incredible duplicitous and devious nature of behavior around trying to present these vaccines to the world as the as the magic bullet. And also the the, the entire tenor and tone of the science in the pharmaceutical and medical arena. Having an insight into that as disgusted me. And I'm not touching any of these products, any of them.
Dan:
But this insight has been honed by two years of this pandemic. Yes. My question is some people, I would say for example, RFK, Jr. He had enough. He had enough information on the whole industry on the whole pharma industry. And he knew about the vaccines and he was wary from the start, and a lot of people were. And so the reason I asked you is because I wanted to, I wanted to get your take on something that's appearing a lot in the comment sections. And people are asking, why are the sort of anti Covidian superstars? You know, who they are these, cardiologists, epidemiologists, doctors of various sorts, why did some of them? Why did they have to wait for information to come out? Before they turned against this narrative? And they went and got their vaccines as late as as late as May or April of last year?
Nick: Yes
Dan: Did that thought cross your mind?
Nick: Again, the answers are not simple, then different people will have different reasons. One of the reasons is that there's a communication exercise going on. And you need to know what... Who are we trying to come to, to bring round (to convince)? Who are we trying to bring back to their senses. It's not, it's not the people on the other side of the table, the public health officials who are doing all of this, they're, you're not going to convince them on anything, no matter how much facts and evidence and logic you bring to bear. So we're after the middle ground. I'm not here to persuade other skeptics of...or to give them necessarily new material to work with. The target is the people in the middle the people who have began to suspect that something is wrong indeed, to suspect that they may have been conned. And so when you're talking to them, there's a constant need to monitor what you're saying and to contain it. It's the concept of the Overton window the range of permissible public discourse. And so for a long period last year speaking, saying anything against the vaccines was actually outside the Overton window, and you have to be very circumspect about what you're doing. And then otherwise, what you would do is lose your audience. So I think that's probably the main reason, a lot of them had that understanding. And you can actually see it the guys who came up crashing out of the door with January 2021 statement that the vaccines were going to kill everybody, those people kind of got dismissed as loonies, and don't have the audience that they could have had if they'd been a little bit more sensible about things. Then there were of course, were people who were (?) themselves and convinced by what are really dodgy manufacturer trials, maybe they didn't read them too carefully, you know. And they were convinced by the media narrative as a result of not having read those trials. And so they swallowed the narrative for a while, and then began to realize that something was wrong, and we're mature enough and wise enough to be able to put aside their past positions and change their minds.
Dan:
Well, I have to say in defense of of the loonies, who came out early to say, stay away from vaccine. I mean, how many people how many millions and millions of people got vaccinated with this dangerous thing between that time? And the time that finally the insiders came out? And warned us?
Nick:
Yeah. And then you've got to ask the question, it's very difficult because we talking all the time about counterfactuals. Would more people have been saved? If that spoken more moderately, at first? You never know, you will never know the answer to that we all we all. Look, what I can say is, there's a lot of sincerity in all of these people. And so we all were doing our best. And we continue to do our best. And most of them fall and fall under incredible duress. And you're standing to gain nothing really. So we are we're all continuing to do our best and to try to speak in measured tones and in humane tones to people so that they have a chance of coming around and snapping out of the mass formation psychosis that has gripped most most of the people in most of the countries in the world.
Dan:
Right, right. Now, you, you mentioned a cohort of people that you're never going to convince Have you have you ever tried another tack? I have a friend just down the road. And he he got the vaccine, he's he doesn't have any medical objections to it, but he hates to see what's happening in terms of the surveillance state and the police measures, and all the 1984 stuff that's coming down the pike. So have you ever tried to attack it from that angle?
Nick:
Oh yes. Yeah, no, I mean, that's our perspective is that these things should all be a matter of free choice. I mean, we think it should be the vaccine should be contraindicated in children and in recovered individuals, you know, even if we wrong about the extent to which it is not as effective as claimed and as safe as claimed. So regardless of how safe and effective as it is, children and recovered people should not be vaccinated. But we also have major concerns around safety and efficacy, I do not think there is any high quality evidence supporting the contention that the vaccines prevent transmission, or at least even reduce transmission. And I do not think there is any high quality evidence supporting the contention that they protect against hospitalization and death.
Dan: We were talking about memory holing, and just for fun, I opened my my Webster Collegiate Dictionary, and I wanted to look up the definition of vaccine. And since this isn't on Google, it can't be memory hold unless someone gets into my house. And it says, any preparation introduced into the body to prevent a disease by stimulating antibodies against it to prevent that's gone, right? They're gonna have to... I wonder what the new dictionaries say?
Nick:
Yeah. Then the new dictionaries say, to you know, reduce the severity or something like that, or to prepare to prepare the immune system in a way that reduces the severity. Look, I don't get too tangled up in the definition of Is it a gene therapy or is it a vaccine? What I say I don't care what you want to call it. Okay? If we're going to redefine the word vaccine, fine, go for it. Let's just do it. Let's call it a vaccine, but acknowledge that this is a new class of therapies, and therefore that it was wrong to have skipped biodistribution, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic testing. This was just flat out wrong. Because what they did was this by labeling it as a vaccine.. you know they, they said, well, they then perform the sleight of hand of saying, “Ah, we've already done that type of testing for other vaccines, but there a completely different class of therapies. So that's a that was a really, I would call that a fraudulent step. That was that was a step which, you know, okay, so we're going to call them vaccines. So that to increase uptake, and acceptability (for the) the general public because a gene therapy is never going to be accepted.
But, but we're going to put them through the same test as a gene therapy, that would have been something I could have maybe said, Well, okay, you know, but the other thing here is that I continuously hear people likening these products to the smallpox vaccine, or the mumps vaccine. And that's completely inappropriate, they are not at all like that. And that's misleading. So I probably lean to calling them gene based therapies. And indeed, if you look at these companies who were working on them, they those this, the very companies prior to COVID, would refer to their products as gene therapies, because that was exciting to investors, you know, when if you if that's how you used to do it until you had to sell it to the general public, there's something devious about suddenly changing the definition of the term vaccine, the label you apply to the product, and then pretending that it works exactly the same way as a conventional vaccine. That's all wrong.
Dan:
Um, another concept you talked about in a recent interview was the concept of Thumos, which is a Greek word. Untranslatable into English. Well, roughly translatable. And well, firstly, first explain the idea to me, and then I'll, I'll give you an anecdote.
Nick:
Yeah, roughly translatable as spiritedness. That's the my favorite one. And it's, it conveys the notion of the virtue of having some passion and some kind of element of risk prone behavior. I think that's for the purpose of this discussion, not a bad way of describing it. And it's a very, very much of a term of, of classical art of classical literature, particularly Greek, particularly the Greek philosophers who admired the Thumos of the young man, you know, this was the typical construct that they would have. And then they also might have used as an example, how an excess of Thumos leads to rash, dangerous behavior with with fatal consequences, but an absence of thumos leads to bad consequences as well. So it's one of these yin yang type concepts you want some of it not too much. And my diagnosis is that the world at the moment in particular, the Western society lacks three months.
Dan:
Would you equate it to the, the idea that Robin Williams was trying to teach his students in the Dead Poets Society, when he says, Hey, everybody, the barbaric 'Yawp' (a barbarian grunt or scream), is that...
Nick:
Yes! Great example! I love that that's a very good example of it. Yeah, of the sort of idea in action. It's, let's, let's talk about its opposite, its opposite is “safety culture”. You know, we want to keep everybody safe. That's it, people need to understand that that's, that comes with a cost. And it's not an open ended good, some unfettered, good, you know, there is a right amount of safety to have in society, it's not more safety, that as a continual objective. And so I do an enormous amount of things that are unsafe, because I enjoy them or because they are good for my soul, or because they have benefits in terms of health, mental well being, satisfaction of curiosity, exploration of opportunity. And I would my life would be terribly impoverished if I was unable to do those risky things, those non-safe things, unsafe things.
Dan:
Yes. First thing that comes to my mind is what we were talking about before the interview, both of us are surfers. Do you encourage your teenage son to go charge when it's really pumping?
Nick:
Yes, of course, you know, they need to get tumbled around and to experience that sort of heavy sea and come up gasping for air after a big wave has taken them out. These are all important steps in becoming a man and they they're and at that, you know, these days, you know, that's just out of my mouth because I happen to have two sons and that's the next step for them. But these days, even saying that, as some are regarded as something vicious, as opposed to virtuous, and you know, but to me, it's rather obvious that children, young men need to be taught how to have courage in the face of adversity and danger. And to recognize situations where taking a stand is, is necessary.
Dan:
Yes, yes. Now more than ever, too, because if we're, I mean, something that just crushes my thumos is when I mean, I have these great conversations in these interviews, and boy, aren't we tough guys, surfers, and so forth. And then tomorrow, I'm going to send my kids off to school
Nick: In their mask.
Dan: And they'll wear their mask at school. Yeah, I mean, that's just that's, it's a soul crusher.
Nick:
But you know, you teach them then how to, how to resist, how to be the kid in the class who is pushing back against this and gradually gradually chips away at this oppressive regime. And the other thing there is also, how to resent is important. Don't (forget). you put that in your memory. Remember, what these people did to you from and learn from it? These teachers are not infallible. What else are they teaching you that is wrong, apply your own mind. Do your own work, study the problem, you know, and so they're getting some good lessons out of it is wrong, that children are being sent to school and mask it's wrong that anybody is forced to put a mask on. I mean, it's a it's another absolute absurdity. And great travesty. I mean, the scientists all are lying, and continually lie and do junk science to try and prop up their lies. It's disgusting. And yes, the masking of children is one of a long list of steps that have been taken that I believe are hostile towards young people. And symptomatic of a of a very pernicious trend in our society in certain quarters. And a trend that, you know, the people who advance this agenda need to be dealt with need to be dealt with seriously and strongly removed from positions of power and positions in educational institutions. Removed! I'm sorry, but when when your character is so weak that you think it's a good idea to undertake these steps, these hostile steps towards children, then I do not want you near children ever again.
Dan:
I love your admonition for us to all remember. Now I think we all have it...at least people on our side, we have this image of those third graders in Las Vegas going nuts when the teacher announces, hey, starting Monday, it's all over. I hope that these kids never forget. And I hope that this kind of thing makes it really, really hard when they attempt it again.
Nick:
Yes, they... look there could be some benefits that flow from this. We could have a generation come through now, that is the best at securing freedoms and the best at ensuring generativity.
Dan:
The best at calling BS.
Nick:
Yes, calling BS and at making sure that the life of conjecture and criticism is hardwired into our constitutions and our societies. Will it last forever? No, of course not. That never forget has been a phrase uttered many times, only to find that a couple of generations down the line people have forgotten completely. I mean, Israel being a case to point right (a case to point to -highlight- OR a case in point), have been behaving exactly like the Nazis. Exactly. All the apartheid, you know, all of the limitation of rights and othering of classes of people, all of the cancellation of speech and individual liberties. They have forgotten in the space of a couple of generations. And it's weird, because many of those people would be observers of the Holocaust, remembrances and so on. Very odd. But they've forgotten.
Dan:
Right. Well, I think we'll finish up on this. Your idea that there's a there's a silver lining to this, that we that there's a lesson that we can all learn if we force ourselves to remember it. And if we can be less complacent from now on? Well, that would be that would look good.
Nick:
The I think what's going to happen here is the thumotic (people with thumos- spirit/energy) people are going to rise up now. And the they will start stamping a new spirit on the culture and in many places, and you will see this happening in various ways. And I saw some astonishing statistics for the extent to which people are leaving California and states.
Dan:
Yes, I saw that graph today.
Nick:
Yeah. So that's not maybe the most thumotic step. Those are not... those people are not taking a stand in their own place of residence. Yeah, but it's it's at least something and it's better than sitting there complying being a sheep. You know? It's, so does show some spirit. But I think these people, you know, I often talk about the the Covidian cult having forced the world through a fine filter. And the people who are who on the one side of the filter, who I've discovered through this process are the most remarkable people and they've found each other now, and they're going to build something truly spectacular. That's my belief.
Dan:
Isn't it amazing. Isn't it amazing? The new friendships we've got that are so much more meaningful now? Yeah, yes. It's been miserable for two years. But at the same time, it's been great in some ways.
Nick:
Yes. I wonder often about those old friendships that I've lost, whether, you know,
A. Whether it's worth worrying too much about them, and
B. Whether if the opportunity arose, I would never really spend much time on them again, because it's not because I'm trying to be churlish, or there's no part of me. You know, I spend an awful lot of time trying not to be bitter. Because there's plenty to be bitter about, yeah, awful lot of time trying not to be angry. And anger is important. But, you know, but it's the right emotional response. But if you're going to be effective in the world, you can spend your whole time angry and bitter. So I do rein that in a lot (limit it). And so I believe I have the emotional capacity and intellectual capacity to, to accept apologies, changes of heart and so on. But I look at the shiny new toy I've got here, which is these relationships with these astonishing people. Intellectual powerhouses of incredible courage, courage and character, the characters shines out of these people. And I, my life will be filled with them, the rest of my life will be filled with them. What a blessing! So I can imagine that I simply just don't have time for the people who used to be counted amongst my inner sanctum.
Dan:
Yeah, and I think one thing we have to do is we have when we go out into society, and you're... all the kids are masks that everybody in the store is masked to not assume that they're masking because they want to or they know they're on the other side, you can discover a lot of people just through engaging them. Conversation!
Nick:
Yes, and I do think it's important to know that there's a group of people who were scared by the virus, not for themselves, they realized that this was dangerous to old people. And they were told that they could be carriers of this disease, and that they could kill off people if they infected them. But that if they wore this little piece of cloth over their faces that they would not kill them. And they believe that story. Now you can fault them, at some level, from a character and intellect point of view for believing that story. But it's not, you can't say that they were trying to be bad or that they're part of the 'Karen' community who's trying to call people
Dan: Yeah, on a power trip.
Nick: Yeah. On a power trip. They're just trying to be good people. And we must never forget that. For me, that's a real challenge, because I regard wearing a mask to protect anybody against the virus is a stupid act. And I think that when you put the mask on, you look stupid. Okay? So but it's so when I walk around with my mask off, and I see somebody going for a run or in a car with his mask on, you know, I kind of catch myself having that thought, you know, oh, you stupid idiot, you know, really what, you took your brain kind of thing. But I have to, I have to suppress that. And it's always like that, you know, we, in South Africa, people who have had to grapple with the concept of racism, I think, have a very firm awareness of that. They realize that othering is never too far away from us. On many dimensions, that's the mature recognition. The immature person says, “I'm... I never other!” (I never put people in a seperate category of human.) you know, I never do that. I'm not a racist. I have no racist bone in my body. No nonsense we all 'other' people all the time on any number of dimensions. And it's a wise mind that is aware of that and aware of that the potential that the dark side of their own personalities, that is on watch, and on guard for its expression (that we remain vigilant/on guard for the expression of the dark side of our personality). And so I act that out with the masks, I remind myself on a regular basis when I have that sort of reaction of anger and oh my goodness, I wish these people wouldn't be so stupid. I rein myself in and remember that that there... among them are people who are trying to be good. Of course, among them are people who are who are being... who are bad characters and bad actors who enjoy the power trip. I have no time for them. I'll call them names to their faces when I when I see them, but for the most part, people are only trying to be good. And that actually is an inspiration to me, because it makes me angry that they were exploited and that they have been abused by the public health officials. That...that gives me renewed passion and vigor in my enterprise to put an end to this whole Covidian cult.
Dan:
Wonderful. Well put, Nick, I want to thank you very much. We've gone over our hour, but we really appreciate you being on with us today.
Nick:
Thank you, Dan. I loved the conversation. I really did.
Dan: Me too. I hope to hear from you again.
Nick: Thank you
12.03.2022 | www.kla.tv/21915
Dan: Okay, switching gears a little bit, Nick, I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you – I think I know the answer – have you got the jab? Nick: It's the first time I've ever been asked the question on air, and I have not gotten the jab. And I will not get the jab. I'm a recovered... COVID recovery, which means that I have robust and long... robust and durable immunity. The disease even then was very mild for me, I just... I wouldn't I wouldn't even describe it as a cold. It was a completely mild disease course. And but even if that was not the case, I would not get the jab knowing what I know now. I think I think a year ago, I might have been, you know, (been) of the mind, well, maybe if you know, if you... if you're immunologically naive to it, to the disease, then taking the vaccine makes sense. I might have had that perspective, I no longer have it for because of what I've seen the incredible duplicitous and devious nature of behavior around trying to present these vaccines to the world as the as the magic bullet. And also the the, the entire tenor and tone of the science in the pharmaceutical and medical arena. Having an insight into that as disgusted me. And I'm not touching any of these products, any of them. Dan: But this insight has been honed by two years of this pandemic. Yes. My question is some people, I would say for example, RFK, Jr. He had enough. He had enough information on the whole industry on the whole pharma industry. And he knew about the vaccines and he was wary from the start, and a lot of people were. And so the reason I asked you is because I wanted to, I wanted to get your take on something that's appearing a lot in the comment sections. And people are asking, why are the sort of anti Covidian superstars? You know, who they are these, cardiologists, epidemiologists, doctors of various sorts, why did some of them? Why did they have to wait for information to come out? Before they turned against this narrative? And they went and got their vaccines as late as as late as May or April of last year? Nick: Yes Dan: Did that thought cross your mind? Nick: Again, the answers are not simple, then different people will have different reasons. One of the reasons is that there's a communication exercise going on. And you need to know what... Who are we trying to come to, to bring round (to convince)? Who are we trying to bring back to their senses. It's not, it's not the people on the other side of the table, the public health officials who are doing all of this, they're, you're not going to convince them on anything, no matter how much facts and evidence and logic you bring to bear. So we're after the middle ground. I'm not here to persuade other skeptics of...or to give them necessarily new material to work with. The target is the people in the middle the people who have began to suspect that something is wrong indeed, to suspect that they may have been conned. And so when you're talking to them, there's a constant need to monitor what you're saying and to contain it. It's the concept of the Overton window the range of permissible public discourse. And so for a long period last year speaking, saying anything against the vaccines was actually outside the Overton window, and you have to be very circumspect about what you're doing. And then otherwise, what you would do is lose your audience. So I think that's probably the main reason, a lot of them had that understanding. And you can actually see it the guys who came up crashing out of the door with January 2021 statement that the vaccines were going to kill everybody, those people kind of got dismissed as loonies, and don't have the audience that they could have had if they'd been a little bit more sensible about things. Then there were of course, were people who were (?) themselves and convinced by what are really dodgy manufacturer trials, maybe they didn't read them too carefully, you know. And they were convinced by the media narrative as a result of not having read those trials. And so they swallowed the narrative for a while, and then began to realize that something was wrong, and we're mature enough and wise enough to be able to put aside their past positions and change their minds. Dan: Well, I have to say in defense of of the loonies, who came out early to say, stay away from vaccine. I mean, how many people how many millions and millions of people got vaccinated with this dangerous thing between that time? And the time that finally the insiders came out? And warned us? Nick: Yeah. And then you've got to ask the question, it's very difficult because we talking all the time about counterfactuals. Would more people have been saved? If that spoken more moderately, at first? You never know, you will never know the answer to that we all we all. Look, what I can say is, there's a lot of sincerity in all of these people. And so we all were doing our best. And we continue to do our best. And most of them fall and fall under incredible duress. And you're standing to gain nothing really. So we are we're all continuing to do our best and to try to speak in measured tones and in humane tones to people so that they have a chance of coming around and snapping out of the mass formation psychosis that has gripped most most of the people in most of the countries in the world. Dan: Right, right. Now, you, you mentioned a cohort of people that you're never going to convince Have you have you ever tried another tack? I have a friend just down the road. And he he got the vaccine, he's he doesn't have any medical objections to it, but he hates to see what's happening in terms of the surveillance state and the police measures, and all the 1984 stuff that's coming down the pike. So have you ever tried to attack it from that angle? Nick: Oh yes. Yeah, no, I mean, that's our perspective is that these things should all be a matter of free choice. I mean, we think it should be the vaccine should be contraindicated in children and in recovered individuals, you know, even if we wrong about the extent to which it is not as effective as claimed and as safe as claimed. So regardless of how safe and effective as it is, children and recovered people should not be vaccinated. But we also have major concerns around safety and efficacy, I do not think there is any high quality evidence supporting the contention that the vaccines prevent transmission, or at least even reduce transmission. And I do not think there is any high quality evidence supporting the contention that they protect against hospitalization and death. Dan: We were talking about memory holing, and just for fun, I opened my my Webster Collegiate Dictionary, and I wanted to look up the definition of vaccine. And since this isn't on Google, it can't be memory hold unless someone gets into my house. And it says, any preparation introduced into the body to prevent a disease by stimulating antibodies against it to prevent that's gone, right? They're gonna have to... I wonder what the new dictionaries say? Nick: Yeah. Then the new dictionaries say, to you know, reduce the severity or something like that, or to prepare to prepare the immune system in a way that reduces the severity. Look, I don't get too tangled up in the definition of Is it a gene therapy or is it a vaccine? What I say I don't care what you want to call it. Okay? If we're going to redefine the word vaccine, fine, go for it. Let's just do it. Let's call it a vaccine, but acknowledge that this is a new class of therapies, and therefore that it was wrong to have skipped biodistribution, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic testing. This was just flat out wrong. Because what they did was this by labeling it as a vaccine.. you know they, they said, well, they then perform the sleight of hand of saying, “Ah, we've already done that type of testing for other vaccines, but there a completely different class of therapies. So that's a that was a really, I would call that a fraudulent step. That was that was a step which, you know, okay, so we're going to call them vaccines. So that to increase uptake, and acceptability (for the) the general public because a gene therapy is never going to be accepted. But, but we're going to put them through the same test as a gene therapy, that would have been something I could have maybe said, Well, okay, you know, but the other thing here is that I continuously hear people likening these products to the smallpox vaccine, or the mumps vaccine. And that's completely inappropriate, they are not at all like that. And that's misleading. So I probably lean to calling them gene based therapies. And indeed, if you look at these companies who were working on them, they those this, the very companies prior to COVID, would refer to their products as gene therapies, because that was exciting to investors, you know, when if you if that's how you used to do it until you had to sell it to the general public, there's something devious about suddenly changing the definition of the term vaccine, the label you apply to the product, and then pretending that it works exactly the same way as a conventional vaccine. That's all wrong. Dan: Um, another concept you talked about in a recent interview was the concept of Thumos, which is a Greek word. Untranslatable into English. Well, roughly translatable. And well, firstly, first explain the idea to me, and then I'll, I'll give you an anecdote. Nick: Yeah, roughly translatable as spiritedness. That's the my favorite one. And it's, it conveys the notion of the virtue of having some passion and some kind of element of risk prone behavior. I think that's for the purpose of this discussion, not a bad way of describing it. And it's a very, very much of a term of, of classical art of classical literature, particularly Greek, particularly the Greek philosophers who admired the Thumos of the young man, you know, this was the typical construct that they would have. And then they also might have used as an example, how an excess of Thumos leads to rash, dangerous behavior with with fatal consequences, but an absence of thumos leads to bad consequences as well. So it's one of these yin yang type concepts you want some of it not too much. And my diagnosis is that the world at the moment in particular, the Western society lacks three months. Dan: Would you equate it to the, the idea that Robin Williams was trying to teach his students in the Dead Poets Society, when he says, Hey, everybody, the barbaric 'Yawp' (a barbarian grunt or scream), is that... Nick: Yes! Great example! I love that that's a very good example of it. Yeah, of the sort of idea in action. It's, let's, let's talk about its opposite, its opposite is “safety culture”. You know, we want to keep everybody safe. That's it, people need to understand that that's, that comes with a cost. And it's not an open ended good, some unfettered, good, you know, there is a right amount of safety to have in society, it's not more safety, that as a continual objective. And so I do an enormous amount of things that are unsafe, because I enjoy them or because they are good for my soul, or because they have benefits in terms of health, mental well being, satisfaction of curiosity, exploration of opportunity. And I would my life would be terribly impoverished if I was unable to do those risky things, those non-safe things, unsafe things. Dan: Yes. First thing that comes to my mind is what we were talking about before the interview, both of us are surfers. Do you encourage your teenage son to go charge when it's really pumping? Nick: Yes, of course, you know, they need to get tumbled around and to experience that sort of heavy sea and come up gasping for air after a big wave has taken them out. These are all important steps in becoming a man and they they're and at that, you know, these days, you know, that's just out of my mouth because I happen to have two sons and that's the next step for them. But these days, even saying that, as some are regarded as something vicious, as opposed to virtuous, and you know, but to me, it's rather obvious that children, young men need to be taught how to have courage in the face of adversity and danger. And to recognize situations where taking a stand is, is necessary. Dan: Yes, yes. Now more than ever, too, because if we're, I mean, something that just crushes my thumos is when I mean, I have these great conversations in these interviews, and boy, aren't we tough guys, surfers, and so forth. And then tomorrow, I'm going to send my kids off to school Nick: In their mask. Dan: And they'll wear their mask at school. Yeah, I mean, that's just that's, it's a soul crusher. Nick: But you know, you teach them then how to, how to resist, how to be the kid in the class who is pushing back against this and gradually gradually chips away at this oppressive regime. And the other thing there is also, how to resent is important. Don't (forget). you put that in your memory. Remember, what these people did to you from and learn from it? These teachers are not infallible. What else are they teaching you that is wrong, apply your own mind. Do your own work, study the problem, you know, and so they're getting some good lessons out of it is wrong, that children are being sent to school and mask it's wrong that anybody is forced to put a mask on. I mean, it's a it's another absolute absurdity. And great travesty. I mean, the scientists all are lying, and continually lie and do junk science to try and prop up their lies. It's disgusting. And yes, the masking of children is one of a long list of steps that have been taken that I believe are hostile towards young people. And symptomatic of a of a very pernicious trend in our society in certain quarters. And a trend that, you know, the people who advance this agenda need to be dealt with need to be dealt with seriously and strongly removed from positions of power and positions in educational institutions. Removed! I'm sorry, but when when your character is so weak that you think it's a good idea to undertake these steps, these hostile steps towards children, then I do not want you near children ever again. Dan: I love your admonition for us to all remember. Now I think we all have it...at least people on our side, we have this image of those third graders in Las Vegas going nuts when the teacher announces, hey, starting Monday, it's all over. I hope that these kids never forget. And I hope that this kind of thing makes it really, really hard when they attempt it again. Nick: Yes, they... look there could be some benefits that flow from this. We could have a generation come through now, that is the best at securing freedoms and the best at ensuring generativity. Dan: The best at calling BS. Nick: Yes, calling BS and at making sure that the life of conjecture and criticism is hardwired into our constitutions and our societies. Will it last forever? No, of course not. That never forget has been a phrase uttered many times, only to find that a couple of generations down the line people have forgotten completely. I mean, Israel being a case to point right (a case to point to -highlight- OR a case in point), have been behaving exactly like the Nazis. Exactly. All the apartheid, you know, all of the limitation of rights and othering of classes of people, all of the cancellation of speech and individual liberties. They have forgotten in the space of a couple of generations. And it's weird, because many of those people would be observers of the Holocaust, remembrances and so on. Very odd. But they've forgotten. Dan: Right. Well, I think we'll finish up on this. Your idea that there's a there's a silver lining to this, that we that there's a lesson that we can all learn if we force ourselves to remember it. And if we can be less complacent from now on? Well, that would be that would look good. Nick: The I think what's going to happen here is the thumotic (people with thumos- spirit/energy) people are going to rise up now. And the they will start stamping a new spirit on the culture and in many places, and you will see this happening in various ways. And I saw some astonishing statistics for the extent to which people are leaving California and states. Dan: Yes, I saw that graph today. Nick: Yeah. So that's not maybe the most thumotic step. Those are not... those people are not taking a stand in their own place of residence. Yeah, but it's it's at least something and it's better than sitting there complying being a sheep. You know? It's, so does show some spirit. But I think these people, you know, I often talk about the the Covidian cult having forced the world through a fine filter. And the people who are who on the one side of the filter, who I've discovered through this process are the most remarkable people and they've found each other now, and they're going to build something truly spectacular. That's my belief. Dan: Isn't it amazing. Isn't it amazing? The new friendships we've got that are so much more meaningful now? Yeah, yes. It's been miserable for two years. But at the same time, it's been great in some ways. Nick: Yes. I wonder often about those old friendships that I've lost, whether, you know, A. Whether it's worth worrying too much about them, and B. Whether if the opportunity arose, I would never really spend much time on them again, because it's not because I'm trying to be churlish, or there's no part of me. You know, I spend an awful lot of time trying not to be bitter. Because there's plenty to be bitter about, yeah, awful lot of time trying not to be angry. And anger is important. But, you know, but it's the right emotional response. But if you're going to be effective in the world, you can spend your whole time angry and bitter. So I do rein that in a lot (limit it). And so I believe I have the emotional capacity and intellectual capacity to, to accept apologies, changes of heart and so on. But I look at the shiny new toy I've got here, which is these relationships with these astonishing people. Intellectual powerhouses of incredible courage, courage and character, the characters shines out of these people. And I, my life will be filled with them, the rest of my life will be filled with them. What a blessing! So I can imagine that I simply just don't have time for the people who used to be counted amongst my inner sanctum. Dan: Yeah, and I think one thing we have to do is we have when we go out into society, and you're... all the kids are masks that everybody in the store is masked to not assume that they're masking because they want to or they know they're on the other side, you can discover a lot of people just through engaging them. Conversation! Nick: Yes, and I do think it's important to know that there's a group of people who were scared by the virus, not for themselves, they realized that this was dangerous to old people. And they were told that they could be carriers of this disease, and that they could kill off people if they infected them. But that if they wore this little piece of cloth over their faces that they would not kill them. And they believe that story. Now you can fault them, at some level, from a character and intellect point of view for believing that story. But it's not, you can't say that they were trying to be bad or that they're part of the 'Karen' community who's trying to call people Dan: Yeah, on a power trip. Nick: Yeah. On a power trip. They're just trying to be good people. And we must never forget that. For me, that's a real challenge, because I regard wearing a mask to protect anybody against the virus is a stupid act. And I think that when you put the mask on, you look stupid. Okay? So but it's so when I walk around with my mask off, and I see somebody going for a run or in a car with his mask on, you know, I kind of catch myself having that thought, you know, oh, you stupid idiot, you know, really what, you took your brain kind of thing. But I have to, I have to suppress that. And it's always like that, you know, we, in South Africa, people who have had to grapple with the concept of racism, I think, have a very firm awareness of that. They realize that othering is never too far away from us. On many dimensions, that's the mature recognition. The immature person says, “I'm... I never other!” (I never put people in a seperate category of human.) you know, I never do that. I'm not a racist. I have no racist bone in my body. No nonsense we all 'other' people all the time on any number of dimensions. And it's a wise mind that is aware of that and aware of that the potential that the dark side of their own personalities, that is on watch, and on guard for its expression (that we remain vigilant/on guard for the expression of the dark side of our personality). And so I act that out with the masks, I remind myself on a regular basis when I have that sort of reaction of anger and oh my goodness, I wish these people wouldn't be so stupid. I rein myself in and remember that that there... among them are people who are trying to be good. Of course, among them are people who are who are being... who are bad characters and bad actors who enjoy the power trip. I have no time for them. I'll call them names to their faces when I when I see them, but for the most part, people are only trying to be good. And that actually is an inspiration to me, because it makes me angry that they were exploited and that they have been abused by the public health officials. That...that gives me renewed passion and vigor in my enterprise to put an end to this whole Covidian cult. Dan: Wonderful. Well put, Nick, I want to thank you very much. We've gone over our hour, but we really appreciate you being on with us today. Nick: Thank you, Dan. I loved the conversation. I really did. Dan: Me too. I hope to hear from you again. Nick: Thank you
from dw.