Berlin '86 and Decades of False Flags – Interview with Jeremy Kuzmarov (April 2022)

12.07.2022 | www.kla.tv/23056

Interviewer Jeremy Kuzmarov is managing editor of covert action magazine. He is the author of four books on US foreign policy, including Obama's Unending Wars from clarity press 2019, and the Russians are coming again with John Marciano from monthly review press 2018. He can be reached at jkuzmarov2@gmail.com. Today we're going to be talking about an article that Jeremy wrote for covert action magazine called “The Yanks did this thing themselves”. What we're going to be talking about is the LaBelle, discotheque bombings in Berlin in 1986. Jeremy, how are you today and thanks for coming on. Kuzmarov Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Interviewer So just a little personal background to this. In April of 1986, I was actually in Barcelona, I was in Spain. On a study abroad year learning Spanish and I remember pretty vividly an April day in my history class. And the teacher said, in lieu of my regular lecture, let's talk about the events of yesterday. And this was just after America under Reagan had sent the bombing raid into Tripoli, as a response as a punitive response for what happened a week earlier. And I remember there were two people really battling out there was an Italian woman in the front, and she was very anti-imperialist. And then there was an American guy in the back. And they had a good argument going. And at the time, my thinking was pretty standard. I guess for a 20-year-old American kid, I was like, well, the Libyans bombed a discotheque in Berlin. Many innocent people were injured. 200 or so were injured, and three people died. Of course, America is going to respond to this. Of course, we're going to bomb them. And I remember at the time, I was a little bit, even a little bit angry at France and Spain for not allowing the bombers coming from England, to fly over; they had to go around and through the Straits of Gibraltar. So I was pretty patriotic at the time. I just went with the, you know, standard news. But there's more to this story, isn't it (isn't there)? What I want to do first is, I think there's a lot of, I was confused first about the Lockerbie bombing, [Lockerbie bombing = airplane explosion over Lockerbie, Scotland, 21 Dec. 1988, many Americans died.] and the LaBelle discotheque bombing. So maybe we can distinguish between these two things. And just give a basic overview of what was each event. Kuzmarov Sure, well, the LaBelle discotech bombing was on April 5 1986, and three people were killed, 229 injured. This was a discotheque frequented by US soldiers in what was then West Germany, and two of the dead were US soldiers quite young age, around 22 years old. And yeah, immediately the bombing was blamed on Libya. Whereas, you know, it's today the evidence seems very ambiguous. And it may very well have been a CIA operation or an agent provocateur. So, and then, you know, that followed (that was followed by) the Lockerbie bombing that was the bombing of a major flight. I think it was a Pan American flight, and again, that killed 200 passengers. It was a huge tragedy. And again, they blamed Libya, and Libya was run at the time by Muammar Qaddafi, who was like public enemy number one. Kind of like Putin is today. And the main, you know, they accused Qaddafi of promoting terrorism around the world. An underlying agenda was that Qaddafi had nationalized the oil and had kicked out the US military and US military bases. So they had a vendetta [vendetta = a blood feud in which the family of a murdered person seeks vengeance on the murderer or the murderer's family] against him going back to 1969. And they blamed him for Lockerbie, and the LaBelle discotheque was used as a pretext for bombing Libya. And it was actually an assassination attempt. They bombed Qaddafi's headquarters, Seymour Hersh [Seymour Hersh = a well-known author from the US and an award winning investigative journalist who uncovered multiple scandals in US foreign policy] proved that was an assassination attempt. That failed only because some of the airplanes had some problems and only half the bombs got dropped. One killed I think Qaddafi's adopted... I think it was an adopted child that was killed of his and the 100 civilians approximately were killed around Tripoli. I think the French Embassy was bombed. And then yeah, this kind of demonization regime change efforts continued for many years thereafter, yeah, culminating the 2011 US NATO operation that resulted in the lynching of Gaddafi. And he was constantly demonized in the Western media, and blamed for any terrorist action, like the Lockerbie terrorist bombing, which investigators and even the CIA Investigators later concluded was the work of Iranians carried out through a radical Palestinian organization that had been infiltrated by the CIA. And there's one theory that the CIA may have been covering up for drug running operations. But I think the… you know, that's one theory. And the other main theory that the Iranians were behind it as a blowback because the US had shut down an Iranian plane that mistakenly crossed into the wrong airspace. Just before that, so may have been retaliation or there could have been a provocateur within this Palestinian group. So could have been a Black Flag. [Black Flag = “no quarter given”, can imply a willingness to use lethal violence against perceived enemies] Although, that's not proven. I don't think. Interviewer You mentioned Seymour Hersh, and we were talking earlier about how it used to be that major newspaper reports had a little bit of credibility to them. I was reading an old Washington Post article and they had some very interesting information on the LaBelle bombing, the title of The Washington Post article I read was “Bombed suspect sent to Germany”. And that was about one of the suspects who was sent to Germany to go to trial. But let me read you a quote from that article. Although the US Embassy in Bonn issued a statement applauding the Lebanese Government for a positive step in bringing terrorists to justice, a German official said Chraidi's conviction remains in doubt, partly because of uncertainty over how cooperative US intelligence agencies will be in aiding the prosecution. A German official close to the case expressed frustration over what he called “the apparent lack of interest on the American side, in providing the necessary evidence.” Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the trial and why the Western authorities weren't willing to cooperate here. Kuzmarov Well, yeah, that's very suspicious, because it should be noted that right after the bombing, Ronald Reagan spoke for the American people and claimed that there are the secret communication intercepts that proved Libya was behind it. And, you know, it was as if Libya was guilty. I think most people believe that at the time. But then, yeah, you know, the, actually the West German police said there was no smoking gun. And they actually weren't sure at that time. And then, you know, with the fall of the Berlin Wall, certain document, yes, STAZI documents [STAZI = the intelligence service in communist East Germany] got released. And because of that, they were able to bring four people to trial, including a couple...Verena. Their last name was Chana, I forget the male's name now on top, my head is in the article, Verena Channa admitted that she planted the bomb. Then there was a Palestinian who was associated with this PFLP, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. [PFLP = Palestinian Marxist–Leninist militant organization] And then there was a Libyan agent Musba Etter, but it came out later that Musba Etter had a CIA connection. And he may have been, you know, provocateur, who was there to kind of frame Libya for this. And then yeah, it was very suspicious that they didn't want to bring to light evidence, they were constantly basically obstructing the justice process. And they were hiding evidence, not willing to disclose evidence, probably because it will implicate them, or it would challenge the official storyline of Libyan involvement with some radical Palestinians. And then within the PFLP, some of the witnesses, there are other attempts to hold trials, that a lot of the witnesses were protected and they...one was in Norway, and they refused to extradite him for trial. Another mystery was that he was able to cross the border between East and West Germany, which nobody could cross at that time. So it gave the indication to a very high level support for these people who were never brought to trial. And the US was withholding evidence and delaying or obstructing trials from going forward that would reveal the full truth. And the Soviet KGB [KGB = main security agency for the Soviet Union 1954-1991] had in its files that these were CIA assets within the PFLP. So again, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, so and then a Stasi defector, who investigated the case came out, said the Yanks did it. And that's where the title, the article comes from. So, I mean, we have pretty strong evidence that this was a black flag operation as much evidence as you can get in this kind of case. And yet, the most suspicious thing is what you point out that they're if they're obstructing the trial, and protecting people, it's a clear sign that there's much more to the story than the official narrative. Interviewer When you say a black flag event, or you … do you mean false flag, is that the same meaning? Kuzmarov Yeah, sorry, I use the term interchangeably. Yeah, false flag would be where it's like a terrorist attack that's blamed on an enemy, say the United States. It's blamed the enemy like Libya to justify military intervention, but really, it's the US intelligence agencies setting them up, you know, behind it, or either planting a provocateur and carrying out the deed and then making it look like it was an enemy so they could demonize them or invade them. Interviewer Would you say this is akin to something like the White Helmets in Libya, setting up a situation making it look like Assad is gasing its citizens which results in bombing of - I forget the name of the city, but the bombing that I guess a couple of US presidents have presided over, but most recently, Trump. Same kind of thing? Kuzmarov Yes, yes, yeah. And I interviewed Ted Postol as a scientist at MIT [MIT = Massachusetts Institute of Technology] who investigated one of the cases at Kan Shay Khun, [Kan Shay Khun = chemical attack on the town Kan Shay Khun in Syria, April 2017] and that appeared to be very clear black flag based on his scientific analysis. And he's a weapons expert. And he really analyzed it professionally, and found that it had to have been carried out by rebel forces and not the Assad government. It was blamed on Assad. And that was used used as a pretext for bombing. There were incidents, both Obama and Trump where they carried out these false flags attacks. In some cases, it could have been the rebels, or it could have been the CIA manipulating the rebels that I don't think we know. But it's very clear those attack came from, you know, bases, even on the launching points, you know, Postol- this, MIT scientists was able to conclude definitively that they came from rebel territory, and rebel stockpiles. So there's questions of even chemical weapons were deployed, the scene was made to look like it. But like, they brought in dead goats and stuff after the fact. And they dressed up the scene to make it look like sarin gas, but probably something else. So and you know, this may be happening in Ukraine with the Bucha, there's evidence that the Russian troops had retreated several days before these bodies were discovered in the streets. So this kind of thing may be going on right now in Ukraine war. And unfortunately, it's a modus operandi of the CIA, and reflects the corruption of that agency, and betrayal of its original mission to provide surveillance, intelligence, good intelligence so American leaders can make good and sound decisions. Instead, it's provoking conflicts and carrying out criminal activities. That's leading to more and more senseless wars and more violence. Interviewer Right. Now getting back to the LaBelle bombing, if you were going to accuse the Americans or Western intelligence of setting up a false flag, you would probably want to establish a motive. So what why is it you mentioned the oil? Is there any other reason? Or you maybe you can expand on the oil? Why we had why why the Americans were so keen to get Qaddafi and without excusing Qaddafi for the bad things he has done. Tell us a little bit about him, and why the Americans hated him so much. Kuzmarov Sure, I think Qaddafi is a successor to Gamal Abdel Nasser, [Gamal Abdel Nasser = 2nd President of Egypt (1956–70)] who the US also tried to overthrow and then you know, support the Israeli invasion of 1967, the Six Day War that really destroyed Nasser, and Nasser was a pan Arab Socialist he wanted to, and he promoted the unity of Egypt and Syria. And he wanted to unify the Arab world under socialism. So he could nationalize their resources, and he had nationalized the Suez Canal, wanted to nationalize the oil so the Arabs could benefit from their resources and become powerful. And Qaddafi followed along that model. He led a bloodless revolution, and Nasser was his hero. And he led a bloodless revolution against the corrupt King Idris in Libya in 1969, who is supported by foreign powers and foreign interests. And Qaddafi nationalized the oil and kicked out the US military and US military bases. And I mean, yeah, he has an oppressive side. But I mean, he had a lot of support in broad sectors of the Libyan population because he used the oil resources to really develop Libya's economy and quality of life indicators increased exponentially under his rule, he invested in education, public health, even young Libyans could study abroad with financing from the Libyan government. He had some very innovative projects as far as water, you know, developing an aquifer system [aquifer system = underground layer of water-bearing permeable rock] for Libya that was extremely innovative. He was promoting unity among African countries and trying to use Libya's oil wealth to promote development projects in Africa. And he was demanding reparations. He spoke out pretty boldly in UN forums calling for reparations from colonialism, slavery, so and yeah, he was pushing an alternative currency. And you know, that, of course didn't endear him to Western leaders in the United States and France, Britain. I think they all want him removed just like they wanted other leaders of his, kinda like Nasser, like Patrice Lumamba, of the Congo I try spoke out was like kind of like Malcolm X, [Malcolm X = African-American human rights activist in the USA (1925–1965)] he really gave fiery speeches denouncing colonialism. He was pushing more than, you know, nationalization of Congo mineral wealth. And he was assassinated, and conspiracy supported by the Belgians and probably many other foreign countries. So those kinds of leaders, unfortunately, who are better leaders for those countries in those regions, and might, you know, change the world, the balance of the world economy a little bit and create a more fair world economy, usually are targets for regime change. And so, you know, the public had to believe that Gaddafi was this monster who supported terrorism. And so the media and government framing of him just left out everything, all the good things he had done for the Libyan people, and the real political stakes, and instead made like he was a… this madman who supported terrorist activities and had to be halted. That had to be removed. And that's why this operation was very successful as a PR operation [PR = “Public relations” is the practice of managing and disseminating information]. And I think the public could believe it, because they had been conditioned for years to seem him as a sponsor of terrorism. And they believe right away, yeah, Qaddafi was behind this. But again, the evidence is rather thin and looks like it was all set up. Interviewer Right. Now, you mentioned these other leaders that were targeted by America. Qaddafi had to be aware of this stuff. And he had to be aware of what happened to Mosadeq in Iran when he nationalized the oil. And he, of course, had to see what happened to Saddam Hussein when he finally went against the Americans. But he upset the Americans with these two cardinal sins of nationalizing the oil and kicking out the US military in '69. So what explains his staying power? I wonder? Kuzmarov Well, I mean, I think he had a lot of support within Libya. You know, maybe the US was focused on other countries for a while. I mean, I think there were efforts, from my understanding, going back, Richard Nixon [Richard Nixon = President of the USA (1969-1974)], who, you know, he was the president when Qaddafi came in power, he was the first one to propose assassinating Qaddafi. And I think there is a record of that. So there were efforts in place all the way back to Nixon. And the CIA was very active in the country, and they had operations they were even able to penetrate Qaddafi's inner circle. And there was a group around Edwin Wilson, some legendary CIA operative, Billy Waugh, and Frank Terpil. And Edwin Wilson poses... you know, that they were supplying arms to Qaddafi, but were actually penetrating his inner circle, I think as part of the efforts to bring him down. This was a long term project. And, you know, he had the support. And I mean, these kinds of regime change operations, we can say, oh, Qaddafi, the dark side, but I mean, any president, if any country is facing that kind of external threat, and foreign power is trying to overthrow them under this pattern, they're obviously going to develop a system to try and thwart that, and it's going to be a more authoritarian political structure. So it's kind of hypocritical to know, decry Qaddafi for his oppression, when he's facing all these kinds of foreign threats. And he's going to have to develop, again, a more authoritarian system to survive, you know, similar to Cuba. Syria had that so. I mean, I think, you know, we should look at the broader picture, and not moralize. But yeah, he was able to survive a long time, I think, again, because, you know, Castro [Fidel Castro = Leader of Cuba from 1959 to 2011] survived, because these kind of leaders did have a lot of the popular backing and they were savvy. And Qaddafi in the 2000s moderated his program, and he accommodated to the war on terror. In part maybe he saw an opportunity to crush because opposition to him was often led by Islamists. There was a support of the old king and the Sunussi clan, I think they disliked Qaddafi. And then there were Islamic militants who hated him. And so I think with the war on terror, he may have seen an opportunity to strike against some enemies. So he allied with the United States. And there was some deal, too. He ended up cutting back on his nuclear program, and in hindsight, many say that was a mistake because he might have survived. His regime might have survived if they develop nuclear programs as a deterrent. Interviewer Yeah, like North Korea. Kuzmarov Yeah, exactly. Interviewer Um, so getting back to Berlin, and the trial. So the Germans came out and said, We don't have enough evidence on the main suspect this Yasser Chraidi who will was an embassy driver for the Libyan embassy in East Berlin. And what I found out in reading a couple articles and yours was that this guy had been going back and forth between East Berlin and West Berlin. And wasn't Checkpoint Charlie [Checkpoint Charlie = crossing point between East and West Berlin during the Cold War (1947–1991)] at the time, probably the most heavily surveilled border crossing in the world? And the German authorities or the American authorities, and the Russian authorities had to know all about who was crossing sides. Kuzmarov Absolutely, yeah. That's very suspicious. It would indicate he was some kind of agent and had very high level protection. Interviewer Yeah, not only him, but the the other guy. What was his name? Eter, the businessman, the Libyan businessman was also passing back and forth. And what was it? What was I going to mention about that? Oh, if? And you gotta you gotta be curious, right? If America comes up with the evidence, within 10 days of the bombing, to say it's lock tight, it's an open and shut case, we're gonna go exact revenge. And yet they didn't have enough information beforehand to prevent the bombing. That seems a little strange. Kuzmarov Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think, unfortunately, we've seen that pattern over and over again, where the intelligence agencies claim something, but never issue the proof. And we're supposed to just trust them. And in this case, the proof has never come to light. And they refuse to provide the evidence, including in trials. So, you know, years later, we still don't have the proof. And we can say, I mean, more comfortable now. There was no reason to trust the statement of President Reagan [Ronald Reagan = president of the USA (1981-1989)], as you were saying at the beginning- at the time, very few people questioned that, what he was saying, and I think the public had been conditioned to view Qaddafi as a sponsor of terrorism. So their gut was just to believe that and to support. You know, there was very limited dissent against the military strikes on Libya. The anti-war movement that had been active in the Vietnam era was quiet. I mean, there were almost no protests, very limited opposition in Congress. So... Interviewer Now I read two of the main suspects in the bombing actually had … one had connections with the CIA, and another one had connections with the Mossad [Mossad = national intelligence agency of Israel]. Can you tell us anything about this? Musuba Eter, who actually ended up I think, in exile in Norway? Kuzmarov I don't actually. You probably know more about him. I only know that he was involved in the trial. He was suspected of being a CIA asset. [asset = informant for spies] I don't know too much more about him. So I'd be interested to learn what more you know about him. Interviewer Just this morning, I read it. I read an article actually, it was a it was a Z. What is the German TV news? It was like ZDF program. And they, they actually track this guy down. He was in Norway. And at the, when he first came into Norway, the Norwegian authorities were shocked. And this was a ... This was a national scandal. And they show this front page article that says dangerous terrorist on Norwegian ground. And we have to get him out of here. And the Norwegian authorities actually requested that the Germans request an extradition so he can testify in court. And they (the Germans) didn't ask for it. And he stayed in Norway. He stayed in a city called Bergen, which is a really nice city. And I don't know if he ever left. And apparently he had Mossad connections and long, longtime Mossad connections, and he's one of the main suspects in the... in the bombing. Anyway, what... this this happened in 1986, I remember I was talking to someone about 911 once and he was like, Ah, that was more than 15 years ago. It's like it's, it's history. Now. We gotta move on. What does the Labelle bombing and the American response tell us? What should we what should we learn from this? Kuzmarov: Well, I think we should learn don't trust your government. Leaders say something and what Where's the proof? You know, they claim to have certain secret documents that they can't reveal. We should be very suspicious because we know the pattern We know that there are hidden agendas at play. And we see this play out again and again, as we were discussing- Syria, probably Ukraine, you know, even 911, there are a lot of suspicious things about that. So, and you know, it's a corruption and abuse of power. And these intelligence agencies have grown so big, so powerful, and they can manipulate public opinion, and manipulate the public into supporting wars that are against the national interest and that have caused a lot of havoc around the world. And so we need a Citizens Movement to combat this, this corruption, and abuse of power. And I think it's important for us to expose it as a precursor, the more people are aware of this, they can begin to mobilize. And there is a precedent in the 1970s, there was a movement to reform the CIA, that took, you know, gained support of congressmen like Senator Frank Church, who commissioned these hearings that expose CIA abuses, and led to some important reforms. Unfortunately, in the 80s, the CIA kind of pushed back against some of the reforms that were being initiated. And I think, you know, that period is kind of crucial, because I think they realized the tide was turning against them, and was in favor of major reforms. And so they fought back. And I think they became more savvy as far as public relations and presenting a positive image for themselves and really covering up their dirty deeds, which, you know, had been exposed. The Church Committee exposed thing like the Phoenix Project [Phoenix Project = CIA-led effort to eliminate the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War] where they were doing this in Vietnam, they were dress, even dressing people up as Vietcong having the massacre, villagers, and blame it on the Vietcong to, you know, turn public opinion against the Vietcong. And that was all part of the Phoenix Project. And that had been exposed, you know, the public was horrified, and really, you know, was supporting major changes, and cuts, cuts and fines or even calls to abolish the CIA [CIA = National intelligence agency of the United States], and some prominent Senator like Daniel Patrick Moynihan was supporting that even maybe Biden, although Biden then became a big friend of the CIA, by the 80s, he's the kind of guy who goes where the wind sails. He was a big reformer in the 70s, when that was the popular cause. And then conservative drift, and all of a sudden, he takes a much different tact from the 80s on so by requiring your citizen mobilization efforts through Congress to reform the CIA, or abolish it and create new structures that would be more transparent and democratic. Interviewer Would you be in favor of abolishing the CIA? Kuzmarov Yes, I would. And I think I mean, the country needs an intelligence agency, but it should focus on intelligence gathering, and the paramilitary wing of the CIA. And, you know, the related agencies like these counter terrorist agencies that are involved in these kinds of black flag operations should be abolished, because they are carrying out illegal activity. Again, that is harmful, I think, to national security, and to world security. Interviewer Exactly. Well, Jeremy, where can we... where can our listeners find your work? Kuzmarov They can go to our website, www.covertactionmagazine.com. And yeah, hopefully, you can subscribe for $20 a year, I will give you a subscription and help us... help to sustain us. And yeah, we try and promote a lot of articles on these kinds of topics. And we're looking also for new writers, and new suggestions for stories or new information we could base stories on so we welcome any feedback or tips or if you're able to write an article for us, that would be terrific. Interviewer In getting ready for this interview, I had to learn a little bit about the Lockerbie bombing. And the Wikipedia entry on that is pages and pages long. There's so much to that one. So do you plan on writing a Lockerbie article anytime soon? Because when you do, I'm going to want to interview you again. Kuzmarov Okay, yeah, that's a good idea for an article. My plate is full right now. Not this week, but in the future. Yeah, I think I will. I've done a bit of research on it. And I know there's a lot of intrigues there. And, you know, deceptions and the official story that doesn't hold up in court and actually some very prominent people came out and said that it was a gross travesty of justice. And again, a Libyan guy, al-Megrahi. The evidence just really didn't link him to the crime. And again, there was, you know, this PFLP is radical Palestinian group, but it had so many infiltrators. That's very suspicious. In this case, I think the Iranians had a motive. So it's an intriguing case. But yeah, again, another terrible tragedy. So many lives were lost. Interviewer Yes. Well, let's hope that with the exposure of these kinds of cases, it'll be harder and harder for our governments to commit these false flag operations. And so I want to thank you for all the work you're doing at covert action, and I hope we can speak again. Kuzmarov Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And thanks for the work you're doing. Interviewer Great. Okay. Bye, bye.

from dw.

Sources/Links: https://covertactionmagazine.com/
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/04/05/the-yanks-did-this-thing-themselves/
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1998/08/bomb-a27.html
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/04/26/German-bombing-trial-collapses/9668735796800/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/UraxzrHSXvBx/